Ep 109 - A Year with Mary with Dr. Paul Thigpen

The Manly Catholic (00:10.722)
Hello all, welcome to another episode of The Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and tonight we have, I guess I'm very excited to bring on to the show, we have Dr. Paul Thigpen. Paul, welcome to The Manly Catholic.

Paul Thigpen (00:23.67)
James, great to be here, brother. Thanks for the invitation.

The Manly Catholic (00:26.966)
Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. And for those of you who don't know, we'll dive in a little bit into Paul's background in a bit, but we will start, since we'll be talking about our Blessed Mother, we'll do a Hail Mary for her tonight. So we'll start in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Paul Thigpen (00:49.93)
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners. Now at the hour of our death. Amen.

The Manly Catholic (00:56.882)
Amen. In the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, Paul, the question I always ask my guests to kick off the show is if you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why?

Paul Thigpen (01:10.978)
Oh my, you know, I got the question ahead of time, so I've been thinking about it. And I don't mean to laugh it off at all, but I, you know, often patron saints are saints of, for people who have particular difficulties, whether it's inner or outer adversity. And one of the challenging, continuing challenges of my life is that I am what you might call mechanically challenged and digitally challenged for that matter too.

So I do great with words and math and art and music and all kinds of stuff, but man, anything that involves, you know, being physically adept just is bad for me. And I've even had colleagues in a, once in a university religious studies department accuse me of having digital demons falling along behind me because I would literally go into a room like the office and the digital equipment would start to act it up. So.

When I talk about spiritual warfare, often on podcasts, interviews, or even radio, they'll start having problems with equipment that they can't figure out. So anyway, I would like to be, if I could be the patron saint of anything, would be the patron saint of those who are mechanically and digitally challenged, because I would know how to pray for them with great sympathy.

The Manly Catholic (02:21.93)
I love that.

The Manly Catholic (02:28.438)
You know, I love that too, because you know, it's funny, you're not the first one. I've interviewed a father, Lampert, Vincent Lampert of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. He said the same thing too, and he'll do interviews and all of a sudden the computer will just fall off, the audio will stop working. And I was like, huh, wonder why that is. It can't be a coincidence after all.

Paul Thigpen (02:50.526)
And I've had it happen where as soon as I get on, the host introduced me, I get on, they can't hear my voice, they can't hear my voice. And so they go crazy, he keeps talking, and then the producer gets involved and, okay, let's change phone lines, let's change this, let's change that, we never had anything like this happen. He gets to the end of the 10 minute segment and he's gotta go on to the next guest. And as soon as he does, everything works perfectly. It's just that uncanny, it's amazing.

The Manly Catholic (03:13.298)
Yeah, oh crazy. Well Paul, why don't you dive a little bit more to your background. I'm sure most of our audience has heard you wrote, so I think I saw over 40 books at this point and I'm 60 now. Oh, so that's outdated. Oh my, oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, yeah, just dive into a little bit more of your background. I'm sure our audience would love to learn a little bit more about you.

Paul Thigpen (03:22.519)
Well, 60 now. It's been a few years. Well, I've been doing it for a long time. So yeah.

Paul Thigpen (03:35.286)
Oh, sure. I was born into a Presbyterian home and had a period of 12 years from the age of, I mean, six years from the age of 12 to 18 when I was an atheist. And at the age of 18 had a rather dramatic conversion experience, which actually involves some spiritual warfare episodes that convinced me that my tiny little view of the universe as matter and energy and nothing more was not enough to explain what was happening to me.

So conversion then, and was a part of the Pentecostal tradition for some years, but was eventually ordained a pastor. And then went to grad school in religious studies and historical theology was my field. And once I started reading church history, as St. John Carlin Newman once said, to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. And I began to realize what the church fathers, they were all Catholic, you couldn't get around it.

And these were the guys, especially including the guys who knew the apostles personally. And so I began a conversion. St. Augustine was well-imported in that, but others as well. And it took a few years for my wife to get on the same page, and we needed to move together. The Lord told me to wait and we did that together. But then in 1993, the whole family came into the Catholic Church. And I've been home ever since, of course. It's wonderful. But it's been good. I've done a lot of...

faith sharing with non-Catholics. And I've directed RCA programs a number of times. I'm doing some private instruction right now. So I always tell the folks coming in, look, there's no question you could possibly ask that I didn't ask at some point. I know where you're coming from. You won't offend me, just ask whatever. And it really serves well in my helping others to become Catholic. So yeah, written, yeah, 60 books, bunch of magazine journal articles.

do some traveling and speaking around the country, take care, help with my six grandkids. My wife and I are on the board of a local pregnancy care center, which by God's grace is saving babies, it's wonderful. And then just a lot of kind of personal mentoring with young men that God has brought to me under different circumstances. And I guess that's mostly everything, and then author interviews like this.

The Manly Catholic (05:59.21)
Well, praise God for the work that you are doing. So I know you've impacted many lives and you know that quote by Cardinal Newman, I attached onto that quote very early on because I'm a convert as well. And I'm a huge I love history so much. But yeah, as soon as you dive into actual church history, it's like, oh, they're all pretty Catholic, aren't they?

Paul Thigpen (06:00.642)
Thank you.

Paul Thigpen (06:12.587)
Hmm.

Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (06:23.694)
It's kind of hard to miss when you dig deep underneath the superficial layer there of history. So it's, but Paul, I wanted to ask if you don't mind, you mentioned you did have a little bit of spiritual warfare personally. And if you feel comfortable sharing, if you don't mind sharing maybe one or two things that you're going through, because I think that will tie in nicely to sort of what we'll be talking about.

Paul Thigpen (06:25.574)
That's right.

Paul Thigpen (06:46.154)
Yeah, I won't go into too much detail. I will say one night when I was with a couple of buddies in the senior year of high school, just had some very dramatic encounters with demonic powers. I don't know what to call it. Again, don't want to go into too much details, but they made it very clear that they were evil, they were malicious, and they were not human, or something beyond human. And that sent me as an atheist.

The Manly Catholic (07:05.552)
No, it's fine. It's fine.

The Manly Catholic (07:11.862)
Hmm, right.

Paul Thigpen (07:15.906)
running back to my childhood and thinking, okay, I've heard this before. Because I studied a lot of scripture when I was a kid and I thought about the gospel stories where Jesus cast out unclean spirits, demons. What if it's that? So it sent me back to the scripture. A number of Christian friends I had, both older adults and peers kind of rallied around me. And within a few months, I'd come back to faith. So that's happened. But then since then...

Since people often know the story, they'll come to me with their own situations, they ask me maybe for some advice. I hesitate to say that because I probably can't handle any more of those conversations just because there's so many. But I've done some consulting with priests before where they have a case and they need someone to kind of come in and ask some questions and that kind of thing. So I've been in a situation with college students with a demonically infested college dorm room.

The Manly Catholic (07:55.958)
Yeah, sure.

Paul Thigpen (08:14.606)
I slept there overnight to see if what they were saying was true and it was true. I laid down on the bed and the whole thing levitated, maybe half an inch off the ground and started oscillating back and forth. Other kinds of things, things I saw when I was in Europe for a couple of years doing missions that, yeah, really hard to explain. It's just human things. So eventually, writing and editing for a while, for 10 books,

they began talking about you, why don't we do something like a manual for spiritual warfare? And I said, pick me, pick me. And in that, I don't talk about my personal experiences at all. It's just a book that kind of lays down, the first part of the book lays down the church's basic teaching about the devil is what demons are, what they can and can't do, what their strategies are. And then it goes into a section of looking at magisterial documents and scripture where they are. Then it looks at lives of the saints, anecdotes and quotes about all that.

And then the second section is kind of prayers and devotions and that kind of thing. I did a whole series of rosaries in view of spiritual warfare, rosary mysteries in view of spiritual warfare. So, yeah, it's been a very useful book for a lot of folks. And I'm really glad I expanded one of the chapters into a book called Saints Who Battle Satan. It's a paperback because there was so much material from the lives of the saints that we can learn so much from. I love the saints.

The Manly Catholic (09:32.04)
Yes.

Paul Thigpen (09:38.242)
And yeah, when I became Galak, I just fell in love with the Sace. They were my new family. So, yeah, so that's been very useful as well. And, and other things. So I, you know, often get invited to talk about it. And every time I do, whether it's on radio or in person, the enemy has preemptive strikes and all kinds of things happen, but he's defeated and greater to see who's in you than he who's in the world, so we keep pushing.

The Manly Catholic (09:38.808)
Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (09:50.188)
Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (10:02.558)
Amen. Yeah. And you know, you've written not only the manual for spiritual warfare, but then you mentioned to the saints who saw hell as well and then saints who battled Satan. So and then you also have the spiritual warfare Bible as well. So those and I'll leave links for all you guys listening as well for Paul as well. Well versed in the spiritual warfare realm. So he has many resources for you guys to check out.

Paul Thigpen (10:20.422)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (10:32.11)
And, but tonight I wanted to transition a little bit, which obviously this is very applicable to what we just talked about, but it's a book you wrote, it's called A Year with Mary and it's daily meditations on the mother of God. And I know for me converting from Protestantism, Mary was a hiccup, so to speak, for me, as I think it is for a lot of people who convert to the Catholic faith, and that I think it's just.

rooted in a misconstrued conception of what Catholics actually believe about Mary. You know, I know a lot of Protestant circles, they believe we worship her, we kind of see her as equal with God, which is of course not something we do at all, but I think that's kind of a misconception that's commonly thrown out there. But you know, Mary is... it's hard to describe Mary. And you know, I actually dedicated this year, ironically enough, to Mary. And I said, I really want...

Paul Thigpen (11:04.034)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (11:27.51)
this year to be dedicated to our Blessed Mother. And it just so happens you wrote a book called A Year with Mary, Paul. So Divine Fate brought us together. But I wanted to kind of kick it to you, Paul. Why is Mary so important? And not only that, why did you kind of think it was that important that you thought a daily meditation reflecting on our Blessed Mother was warranted?

Paul Thigpen (11:54.102)
Wow, that book is part of a series called A Year With. So I did A Year With the Scripture and Mike Aquilina, A Year With the Church of Fathers. I had already done one called A Year With the Saints, so it's a whole bunch of saints all throughout the year. So at TAN we were just thinking what?

what else should we have or with whom else should we have a year? And everybody said, well, Mary, of course. So again, I said, pick me, pick me. Because, yeah, I just had a wonderful experience with her as a convert. I think part of non-Catholics, I mean, not the Orthodox, but Protestants, struggle with the Catholic view of Mary is what she said, that they have misconceptions.

about that we worship her, put her on the same level as God, that kind of thing. But the other part of it is that the Protestant notion of salvation is often so attenuated compared to the full salvation that Catholics know about that we're not, you know, salvation is not just eternal fire insurance. It's

the what God wants to do with us, he doesn't just impose on us some kind of external, exterior righteousness like Luther taught, but he wants to transform us from the inside out so that the righteousness of Christ actually becomes who we are, we become righteous. And that includes then, that means, as Jesus said, you must be perfect. And what it means is that when most of us die, we're not perfect yet. If, you know, as the scripture says, the

we won't see God without being perfect. Then what does that mean? Well, it means purgatory is what it means. So that's part of what they have to understand is what salvation means, that it's not just fire insurance, but it is actually being perfected and restored to the full image that God made for us. But even more that because Christ, in Christ, God has taken his divine nature and joined it to our human nature, has taken on everything that is to be human, then he is healing and elevating our nature.

Paul Thigpen (14:03.142)
so that, as it says in Peter's letters, that all these things happen so that we might have a share in God's nature. And that's a profound statement that's been looked at deeply in the East and the West. But the notion that we can actually have a share in God's nature and in his characteristics, that we're not just kind of folks up in heaven saying, glad we made it, oh, look, there's God, I can see his face, that's all great, but that we are actually

elevated, transformed, so we take on a share of the characteristics of God. I love the way that we talk about the Church Fathers. I love the way that some of them put it. They said if you take a lump of iron in itself in its own nature, it's cold and dark. But if you throw it into a blazing fire and you leave it there, eventually it takes on the characteristics of the fire. It becomes bright and hot. And the reason is that not only is the iron in the fire

but now the fire is in the iron. That's how closely united they are. And they said that's how it is with the saints, that they become so immersed in God, so intimately joined to him, that it's as if the characteristics of his fire become our characteristics. And once you understand that, and that's true for all the saints, for starters, then it changes everything. It changes not only understanding of purgatory, but of what the communion of saints is. I mean, even some Catholics have the notion that

The Manly Catholic (15:03.234)
Hmm.

Paul Thigpen (15:30.694)
Saints can pray for us, but they can't do anything else for us. They just kind of act like they hand our prayer request on. That's not true at all. That's not the Catholic teaching at all. It's that God can send them out on missions and do things with them through the power he shares with them and the knowledge, um, just as he does with the angels. And so that's one reason why, for instance, and, uh, and the right of exorcism, major exorcism, they actually have a litany of the saints where they call on one by one, the saints.

The Manly Catholic (15:55.726)
Mm.

Paul Thigpen (15:58.802)
And the amazing thing is you get testimony from exorcists that during that time, often then the victim who's possessed, the demon will begin to cry out through them and start naming the saints who are coming and they see them showing up to do battle. So they'll say like, oh, it's totus to us. Well, we know who that is, St. John Paul II. Or oh, it's the bright lady or the white lady and that's Mary. Or oh, it's the one in black.

The Manly Catholic (16:14.51)
Mm-hmm.

The Manly Catholic (16:20.238)
Mm-hmm, right.

Paul Thigpen (16:28.542)
And that's Gemma Galgani who is dressed in black and she is quite a warrior. Or even that, I love the one they say it's, oh, it's the little Albanian. That's Mother Teresa of Calcutta. So anyway, I mean, that's just, you know, the kind of thing we're taught about. It's not just that they, we offer prayers up to the saints and they're up there praying for us, which is great. We're glad for them to pray for us and they do, but they can do so much more just like angels can. God actually gives them a share of his power, his knowledge that explains why we can pray to saints.

Because if people say, well, okay, I know about asking another friend to pray for me, but how do I ask a saint there in heaven they can't hear what I say? Well, yes they can, if God has shared with them the ability to do that, his knowledge, his presence. And so all the things, we're not saying that we're our gods, though it comes close to saying that in scripture, St. Thomas Aquinas talked about it. It's in the, it's in the Liturgy, actually, of the Mass. But that we don't become actual gods, but we come to take on so much of his nature

The Manly Catholic (17:07.234)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Thigpen (17:28.894)
We can we can act in so many ways with his power with his knowledge his wisdom his holiness his love We come to love the way he loves more than we could ever loved here So maybe I'm going on too much But the point I'm making about is this is this is what it means to be a saint And if that's what it means to be a saint that of course we can call on their help and they do help us I could give a hundred stories sits for my own life specific ways to help and then if the blessed mother is The Queen of say she is the mother of the son of God

The Manly Catholic (17:39.03)
No, you're fine.

Paul Thigpen (17:57.814)
God chose her among all women and shaped her from the beginning. It's part of what the Amakic conception is about. To be the mother of the son, what an entrustment of, he entrusted his son to her. And so in so many ways, I mean, of course we can call on her for help. The saints talked about her. In my book, I like to talk about her as a, she's not just a queen, she's a warrior queen. That you have saints who say the demons of hell fear her name even worse than men fear.

an enemy army. And the whole thing about pressing the serpent, you know, beneath her heel that you see in statues. She, I think it was Archbishop Sheen who once said, she's the only woman in scripture, or probably person in scripture, that God specifically declares there will be an enmity between this human being and the devil. And so he sees her as the enemy, but she's got the upper hand. And so, of course, we come to her for help. There's a big portion of my manual about that.

The Manly Catholic (18:52.48)
Mm.

Paul Thigpen (18:57.346)
that she's able to do for us. And she delights to do it for us. And she has a share in God's power, just like all the saints do. But imagine given her position, I think she's got a greater share of a lot of things than the rest of the saints do. So there's nothing, we're not worshiping her, we are venerating, we're honoring her. We're always so recognizing that she has a share in the nature of God. She participates, as Saint Peter said. It's a wonderful thing.

The Manly Catholic (19:25.63)
Yeah, I'm Paul. I mean, just I'm just in the intro of the book, it says, it's a quote you have from St. Bernard of Clairvaux, and it says, of Mary, there is never enough. And I just love that because, you know, I just think of, you know, Mary in her life in the scriptures, which there's not a ton on her, but her example is so profound. And, you know, especially, you know, the wedding of Cana. And this, this

When I reflect on it, it always kind of makes me chuckle that scene where, you know, Jesus and Mary, they're conversing. And Jesus is like, Mom, like this isn't my time. And Mary's like, just do whatever he, like he's gonna do it. Just do whatever he says. But, you know, we kind of chuckle at that. But, I mean, that just shows how much Jesus loved his mom. And that, you know, if Mary asked Jesus to do something...

Paul Thigpen (20:06.017)
I'm sorry.

The Manly Catholic (20:17.802)
He's probably gonna do it, just like we would with our own mother. I mean, just imagine the infinite love that he has for us and then for his own mom. I mean, it's just, it all, that's what I love about Catholic teaching. It all makes sense when you just think about it as on a human level and perspective.

Paul Thigpen (20:19.202)
Thanks for watching!

Paul Thigpen (20:29.682)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then look at the Old Testament precedents. That's the other thing, especially when we call it, why do you call her queen? She's not Jesus' husband, he's the king. But you go back and you look at the Old Testament, oh no, it was Bathsheba was the mother of Solomon the king. And she was known as the great lady. That was her title. And when, you know, in the king's presence, everybody else would have to stand and he would sit down and he didn't stand for them, they stood for him. But.

Scripture tells us when the great lady came in, they put her at his right hand and he actually stood for her. He was venerating her. That's how special she was to him. And we're also told that she would receive the requests, the petitions of the people and intercede on their behalf with the king. So the king is, she's a queen mother. She's not a queen wife. That's kind of a modern notion we have, but she's the queen mother.

And so all the rest of it makes sense. And Gabriel said at the Annunciation, he said, you know, that you will bear a child and, um, and he will take the throne of his father, David, right there. He said, he's a, he's a king in the, in the line of King David. And then the implication is, and that makes you the queen mother. You'll be the queen.

The Manly Catholic (21:45.226)
Yeah, and Paul, you brought up another good point too. And I think I kind of got caught up in that mindset was all the saints do, and again, this is extremely important, is that all they do is intercede for us. And just thinking about it too with Mary, I mean, look at all the apparitions that have been approved by the church. I'm actually reading a book right now on all the apparitions that have been approved. And it's just incredible of...

you know, of her interceding, I mean, even just the rosary and the miraculous medal and all this, these things that she gave to us and the instruction she gives us. And I think we often forget, you know, the power of her witness and that, no, she's not just, of course, she's interceding for us, but no, she's come, she's come down to earth many, many times and is very well documented. And she's, that just shows again how much God cares for us, but then our mother as well.

And I think too, another misconception, maybe we can touch on this a little bit, is I know Protestant circles, they think too, well, you guys are so focused on Mary, but what about Jesus? I feel like Mary's kind of taking his place almost. And it's funny, I actually started the consecration, this is day 10 for me, total consecration to Mary. And it's funny when you focus on Mary and you ask for her intercession, you actually, you're driven more towards the son, which of course we know this in Catholic.

tradition as well, but you think, okay, I'm focusing on his mom, but then no, what's she always doing? What is she always doing? She's always bringing us to her son. I think that concept is misconstrued and just not realized. And I think that's so profound too, because yes, when you focus on the mother, she's going to just focus and shine her light back onto Jesus and say, hey, no, like, yes, venerate me and honor me, but always give it back to my son as well.

Paul Thigpen (23:32.391)
Yeah.

Paul Thigpen (23:40.794)
Yeah, I did a book of prayers one time called Prayers Before the Blessed Sacrament. And I had one of them that was a prayer to our lady before the Blessed Sacrament. And I had some people criticize, why would you even do a rosary or pray to Mary when Jesus is right there? But one of the lines I have in that is that wherever the child is, there will be the mother, that she's so attached to him. So if he's there, she's there too. And in a sense, the

the host being in the suborium there, it's the monstrance that the monstrance is almost like an image of her carrying him in her womb. And it's like a shadow of her in certain ways that even the Marian doctrines, the dogmas, the mother of God, what's that all about to affirm to people who didn't believe it that Jesus Christ is fully God and she's his mother?

So it all points back to him and the others too. Why would she be immaculately conceived? Because she was his mother and God wanted to give an appropriate place for him to be conceived and born in her and then raised by her and all the rest. Always, always, when you have, if you look at the best families, you have the best family situations. We all have lots of dysfunctional families around, but then, you know, all of us have to some extent, but you look at the ones where the mother is the most.

holy and the child is holy. They're close, they're close. And the mother's always watching out for the child and the child's always rejoicing in the mother. So yeah, wherever she is, if we find her, we'll find him. He'll be there.

The Manly Catholic (25:22.41)
Amen. Well, even the rosary too, which I know is a hiccup for some people too, but all the mysteries of the rosary, I know there are a lot that are about Mary, but again, it's about Mary pushing it back towards her son, like the Annunciation, right? It's about God choosing her and conceiving of the Holy Spirit and all that. It's still about God, even though, yes, it's her great, yes, her magnificat, but it's still pointing back to the Son. But I want to ask you too, Paul, because I'm guessing when you

right in a book called A Year with Mary, there's hours and hours of research that's attached to it. I'm sure you've just scoured documents and the saints and all that. So what would be, I guess, in your estimation, the most surprising or most profound insight you gained when you were putting together this research for the book?

Paul Thigpen (26:11.696)
Wow, that's going to be hard to answer. There were so many. Yeah, and it was also some years ago when I wrote it.

The Manly Catholic (26:14.062)
It's a hard question, I know.

Paul Thigpen (26:25.578)
Well, I really have to think about, I mean, I guess I was surprised to find not so much about her, but that so much had been said about her and taught about her and to see how important she was in the lives of the saints. I think when I started that book, you know, I first thought I may not even be able to find enough, you know, texts to quote, to fill 365 pages and then, oh my gosh, it was everywhere. And...

And it's a few saints that really focused on her a lot. But so that was one of the surprising things, just how from the very beginning, just from the oldest hymn that we know to her goes back to ancient times. And from the beginning, how great a role she's played in the lives of the saints and how they had no problem venerating her, talking to her, all those things. Because they understood from the beginning that if they're close to her, they'll be close to him.

So I guess maybe that's the thing, not so much about her own character, but certainly I learned a lot about patience and all the other virtues that she demonstrates so clearly. I think one of the things, it's the same with St. Joseph actually, not the same, but a similar thing, that once you, we have only this much in scripture, but once you take a step back and say, okay, if this happened, that implies this.

that implies this about her, that she had, what kind of faith did it take for her to say yes to that? Knowing number one, she had known a man. Number two, it's gonna lead to all kinds of misery for her because she'll be probably outcast and all the rest. Three, I mean, just all the confusion, all the things that would have happened. And what kind of woman would it take to have that kind of faith? And what kind of heart would it have taken to stand at the foot of the cross?

and to watch your son there and his blood come down. Again, you begin to meditate on the wedding feast at Cana, and you start getting all kinds of interesting insights and to her and to their relationship. So maybe just lots of little things like that too, that were so important, now that I think about it. But it's the same with St. Joseph. I've done a book called The Life of St. Joseph is Seen by the Mystics, and I've woven together a narrative of his life, drawing from

Paul Thigpen (28:46.818)
private revelations from folks that, you know, a lot of people would recognize like, Lester Dan, Catherine Emmerich and Maria D'Agrida and some others. And it's not gospel, you know, it's private revelation. But what it does for me, it's like a sacred drama. It draws you into the, what would have been the very human story of their life together and make you realize, oh my goodness, if that's the case, what kind of person was this to them? What kind of love does that show?

kind of faith and all the other virtues. Lord help me to be like that. You know, it's very, very inspiring.

The Manly Catholic (29:25.346)
No, I totally agree. I think another thing too maybe that's been surprising for me is how much Mary actually loves us and wants the best for us. I mean, even just the saints in general, I mean, we have like our own personal cheerleaders if we just ask for their help. You know, like they want us to get to heaven with them. They want us to succeed. And you know, how often we just don't use the power of the saints, especially Mary, and especially St. Joseph who

Paul Thigpen (29:34.862)
Mm.

The Manly Catholic (29:54.806)
you know, have a little more weight probably because you know, there Jesus is earthly parents. And you know, especially as men, and I wanna kind of transition the conversation to, you know, the spiritual warfare. And I know you touched on it a little bit with Mary, but I guess expand on that concept, Paul, is why is Mary so feared by demons? Why is she so powerful?

And why do I've heard I don't know if I've heard this from exorcists or a podcast or something but they even said it seems like the demons even they hate Mary almost more than they hate Jesus in a sense because of the fact that she's a woman too.

Paul Thigpen (30:37.878)
There are so many things we could say. I'll start with way back. There's been a lot of speculation, discussion, even debate about kind of the occasion of the fall of the angels who became demons, why they would have rebelled against God, what was it that they just said no way to. And one of the speculations is that, first of all, one of the speculations is that...

God revealed to them that he was going to become a man and that they would have to worship that man. And they said, no way, that's a little weakling creature. But then another speculation is that they were also gonna, and by the way, his mother will be your queen and you will be at her command. And then they just said, no way. Now that's all speculation, but it does give us a sense of, you know.

Try to imagine your demon like C.S. Lewis did in his book, Scree-Tape Letters, you don't want to do it much, but what would you, and your rage is primarily at God. You hate him, you feel like he's punished you and cast you out and your mind has been darkened and you're putting all the blame on him. And for eternity, you just simmer and rage at him. But what's the next, if you can't get your hands on him, what are you going to do? Who are you going to go after? Who are you going to?

and excuse me, just part of spiritual warfare for us. When Saddam Hussein was in hiding, when the country, his regime had finally fallen, people didn't know where he was, but the people who hated him in his own country wanted to get their hands on him. And they engaged in a practice that goes all the way back to ancient times. And that is they found a statue of him, an image of him in the public square, threw it down and then started stomping on it, throwing their shoes, which in

Arabic culture is the most insulting thing you can do. And so when you can't get your hand on the enemy, you go after his image, and even more so after his children, if you can. And so of course, Mary would be the primary target then, along with Jesus, of their hatred. But even more so, as you mentioned, because she is a woman. She's not God in flesh. She is a woman. And a woman who's

Paul Thigpen (33:03.274)
perfect human, but not God also like Jesus is. And this woman, without even being, it's one thing for them to have to worship a man who is also God, but to have to venerate and take your orders from a woman who's not even that, she's just the mother of God. It's a humiliating thing for them. So a lot of folks would say, and I've said before that, the one thing the enemy can't fake is humility.

can't counterfeit that. I think St. Augustine once said that, he can counterfeit the other virtues, but not humility is too contrary to his darkened nature. And she is the perfect example of humility for us. So he doesn't even like to be in her presence. He can't get his hands on her. So he's gonna go after her children, who we are. But just, and that's for all those reasons, that's why God made it clear in the book of Genesis that there would be enmity between the woman and between.

between the devil. And, but we know who wins.

The Manly Catholic (34:08.026)
We know who was the war. Yeah, but Paul, I wanted to, because you mentioned it a couple times as the factor of humility. And I know you said a lot of research, you learned a lot about her virtues. And I'm sure humility is one that just stuck out like a sore thumb. And I know talking with exorcists and just hearing some talks on it, I mean, they say demons, you know, just hate her because of her humility. And same thing with St. Joseph. So maybe...

You can expand for our audience a little bit on the nature of humility, especially in terms of Mary and why I guess it would be that humility is sort of like the thorn in the side of a demon.

Paul Thigpen (34:48.95)
Hmm. You know, I think in popular culture, we often have a wrong idea of humility, that it means self-deprecation, putting down yourself. Oh, I'm terrible. That kind of thing. And then we speak of false humility is when someone's pretending to be hum, humble, but they're not really. You can get past all that, I think, with the church's traditional teaching about humility. And humility is seeing yourself as you truly are.

and recognizing that whatever you are, you are because it's a gift from God. And those two things, there's, you know, spiritual principles are the things that keep you from puffing up in pride, seeing yourself as something more important than you are, but it also fights against the self, you know, the putting down of self. You can recognize the good things in you, but then you recognize them as gifts from God.

Say, hey, I'm really smart. Well, you might be really smart, but you got to remember it's a gift. And if God could take it, he gave it to you and he could take it away anytime. So I think those two principles help us to understand what humility is. Having a right view of who we are. And the more we know God, the more we can see ourselves the way he sees us. And that's as St. Francis said, that's what a man truly is. It's the way God sees him. And, and the more we know him too, the more we realize that any good thing in us. And it's not to put ourselves down, but any good thing that St. Paul says.

What do you have that wasn't given to you? Any good thing in us is a gift of grace from God. So that doesn't make, for that reason, we don't deny the goodness. We don't try to minimize the goodness. We recognize it, but we don't vaunt ourselves up, especially over other people, because we recognize it. It comes from God and he can take it anytime. It's all his. And so with Mary, again, like I said, Augustine once said that humility is the only,

virtue that the devil can't imitate. And the reason being that it was pride that brought the devil down. His thinking he could rule in God's place. He would climb to God's throne and rule in God's place. And that pride then was the fountainhead of all the other vices in him and all the other evil. And so that's at the core of who he is, the pride that he is so great and so much greater than anybody else. So when that kind of pride...

Paul Thigpen (37:09.494)
bumps into someone or comes in the presence of someone who is the exact opposite, who knows who she is and knows it's all a gift from God because she sees herself truly as God sees her. They can't stand it. It's worse than anything else too. It's so contrary to their heart. It's like somebody taking a dagger in their heart, I would think, you know, just speaking metaphorically, of course, but yeah.

The Manly Catholic (37:30.638)
Thanks for watching!

The Manly Catholic (37:35.442)
Yeah, I think another thing too, Paul, about her is her obedience. And I have been impressed by just diving deeper into her life and just her constant ability to say yes to God and God's will for her life. And I think too, talking about her humility as well, in terms of her relationship with St. Joseph too. And, you know,

when Joseph got a dream to flee to Egypt, and Mary was just obedient and she obeyed, and she trusted Joseph too. But the...

Paul Thigpen (38:14.402)
She didn't get the dream. So she had to take Joseph, he had to have faith that Joseph was really hearing from God. Yeah.

The Manly Catholic (38:19.626)
Right, right. But I think too, it just goes the obedience between husband and wife as well when a decision is made. It's like, okay, I trust you and this is what we're doing and I will follow you. And just her great yes, her great magnificat, I think we don't realize the implications that actually could entail. And that's why Joseph said he was gonna divorce her quietly because basically,

having a child out of wedlock essentially was a death sentence in that day and age. And just that obedience and that trust in God, I just, I find so profound, Paul, and maybe you can speak to that too, just because I think us again, in our culture, we think obedience is a weakness as well. Like we can't make our own decisions and it's not good to just kind of follow the pack, which...

Of course it's not, but if you're following God, then of course that's the way to go.

Paul Thigpen (39:22.423)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say two of the virtues that underlie obedience to God. The one is humility. Again, if you're not humble, you're gonna say, well, that didn't sound like a good idea to me. I could do it better. Well, God, how about this? You know, I wouldn't go into it. But anyway, I've heard a funny story about somebody trying to advise God. So first of all, you have to have the humility that says he really does know best. He knows far beyond anything I know.

But then second, it's the faith factor. You have to say, and I will trust him, that he knows he's trustworthy, that he knows what he's doing, even though I don't understand it, even though it's gonna cost me all those other things. So in order to obey God, we have to have first a humility to submit to his will and to recognize that he's God and we're not.

And then second, you have to have the faith that, and I can trust him. His will is not arbitrary. He has my good in mind. And if he allows things or directs things in a certain way that aren't what I would have chosen, that I have to have faith that it's good for me. Ultimately, it's the best for me. It's hard to obey if you don't have both the humility and the faith.

The Manly Catholic (40:32.694)
Yeah, it's always hard when we try to make plans and God is, was there a saint that said that? It's like when we make our plans, God just sits up there and laughs. Ha ha ha.

Paul Thigpen (40:42.386)
And lastly, I don't know if it's the same, but you know, it's in the book of Proverbs. It says that, I mean, something similar that the mind of a man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. Yeah. And that's in Proverbs. And then there's another one that, you know, it's an old German saying, in English translated, man proposes, God disposes. So it's, you know, same idea that you make all the plans you want, but if they're contrary to his plans, you're going to have to humble yourself and have faith in him.

The Manly Catholic (40:52.962)
That's, yeah, that's right.

The Manly Catholic (41:04.451)
Yes.

Paul Thigpen (41:12.086)
Go with the flow, with God's flow.

The Manly Catholic (41:15.522)
100% now and Paul want to ask it because you mentioned it towards the beginning The a title that the demons use against Mary is oh, it's the lady What would you say the lady in the white dress or something?

Paul Thigpen (41:27.89)
Or like the white lady, I think sometimes it's the bright lady. And of course, anything that signifies light to them is horrible because they're the creatures of darkness and their minds have been darkened. They, they, they despise beauty of any kind.

The Manly Catholic (41:31.426)
The Bright Lady.

The Manly Catholic (41:36.756)
Right.

The Manly Catholic (41:43.698)
Yeah, I mean Mary's the greatest creation after Jesus, of course, but I mean she was made perfect by Jesus. So I mean what more perfect at reflecting God's light too than his own mother.

Paul Thigpen (41:58.706)
Yeah, you have, I was just gonna say quickly that I'm trying to remember, I can't remember which thing it was, but in the canonical proceedings for the canonization, one of the things you would recognize, I can't remember them now, but then so many have read about, but anyway, that testimony was given about the how

Paul Thigpen (42:22.614)
the demons had been afraid of this thing. And you get testimony from the demons as well that, you know, some exorcist will tell you that, say if an exorcism is going on, the deliverance team, somebody starts praying a Hail Mary. There was one occasion where the exo, you know, contemporary exorcist said, don't something like, don't pray that prayer. Every time you do, it's like a hammer hitting my head. And they just, it's, you know, it's interesting to me. I've often said this that,

In the New Testament, Jesus had adversaries who did not believe he was who he claimed to be, and even thought he was demonic. And we also know that at a time when they're always hanging around trying to criticize and challenge him, and there were times when someone demon possessed is brought to him, and he commands the demon and it goes. And so the people around there would have had

been looking at this and say, okay, these guys, he's a fake and he cast out demons by the prince of demons, all this stuff. And then, but he's got authority over the demons. He just cast them out and sent them at his word. So who am I going to believe? And in that sense, the demon is giving testimony to who Jesus is. He has to. And on another occasion, when the demon cries out, you know, son of God, have you come to torment us before the time? They have just called him who he really is.

whom his adversaries are claiming he's not. And for everybody who's around listening, it's like, my gosh, even the demons have to testify to who he truly is. And so you get a similar kind of thing with Mary when the demons are testifying that they hate Mary, that they can't stand the sound of her name, that the rosary is prayers like the Hail Mary's like a hammer against their head, those kinds of things. That's some testimony to pay attention to.

The Manly Catholic (44:12.074)
Yeah, Paul, I always find that so fascinating though, is, you know, cause you, I guess most people don't listen or speak to exorcists at all, but if you just, I mean, cause it's, if you listen to multiple exorcists, even just like five or 10, like all of them, they all say very similar things. And it's almost like in our culture, it's like how, like what proof do you need that this battle is raging on around you?

You know, it's not like all these exorcists got together. It's like, hey, let's just fool. Let's just fool the public, you know? And even just the story that you briefly shared, it's like, oh yeah, I went to a dorm room that they claimed was haunted and the bed just started levitating. I was just like, I mean, and you're a sane guy. You've wrote over 60 books. You have a PhD. It's not like you're going crazy or anything, but in your wide awake, you know? So it's just...

Paul Thigpen (44:45.01)
Right, right.

Paul Thigpen (45:01.534)
And I was wide awake, I just laid down.

The Manly Catholic (45:06.782)
It's fascinating in a sad way, and even like, again, going back to the apparitions and all these witnesses that, and the church has, I mean, the church just, they, it's basically, it seems like the church assumes it's false until proven that it's true. Essentially, they take a very hard and strict rule on these apparitions and miracles and everything. And, you know, it's just almost, I almost feel like it's our duty, in a sense, to call this and mind to the world as well.

I know I spewed out a lot there. I'll just kind of kick it back out to you for your thoughts. Ha ha ha.

Paul Thigpen (45:40.159)
That was good. We do understand why the church has to be so careful about that. Once you, like I've written a book on the end times, the Catholic view of the end times, and that kind of thing. Once you start looking at the history of false prophets or people who really were just mainly unstable, cleanly prophets, and they got a following and they predicted all the stuff that always led to misery.

then you realize that's why the church has to be really careful in examining these things. We've got folks on our day, you know, right now they're saying things that are claiming from God but totally contrary to His Word and to the Church's teaching. And yet plenty of people fall on them. So I do understand why the church is always urging caution about claims. I've met people before who just claim the craziest things that Mary said to them or Joseph.

But anyway, all the more then does that give us confidence? I believe the church teaches we don't have to accept private revelations even if they've been approved by the church, but when they have, like at Lourdes or Fatima, then I know how carefully it's been investigated. And that gives me the confidence that I can, yeah, I can respond in faith to that.

The Manly Catholic (46:51.162)
The church is always steering us in the right direction even if it appears that individual members or priests or bishops or whatever maybe appears they're offline so to speak then the church is always the ship that never sinks so always stay on board. Well Paul I do want to respect your time but just give our listeners where they can find not only this book again this is A Year with Mary Daily Meditations on the Mother of God but all of your other 59 books

that you have written as well. And more information about you.

Paul Thigpen (47:24.422)
Well, okay. Yeah, I don't have a website or anything for myself, but all the books that are published by TAN, most of the ones we mentioned tonight are, you just go to tanbooks.com, T-A-N-B-O-O-K-S.com, and you can look them up there. I mentioned one older one from, gosh, it's been over 20 years now. It's called The Rapture Trap, A Catholic Response to End

Apocalyptic prophecies and that kind of thing and what the church actually teaches and that one is published by Ascension Press, excuse me, then a bunch of the other books I mean, you know without many books that published with probably a dozen different Catholic publishers But but the most recent ones and the ones most of us we've talked about it with tan books and well for you to go there That's a great place. If you have to you can go on Amazon You know some folks are out of the country and that's about the only way they can get it

And then also, and I always want to remember to say your local Catholic bookstore. I hope they're carrying, I know they're carrying some of them usually, and hope they would. Let's not forget our Catholic bookstores. They're usually family operated, local, faithful Catholics, and trying to make good things available to everyday Catholics. So don't forget them. In fact, I'd say start there if you can.

The Manly Catholic (48:38.574)
Amen, yes. Support local businesses, especially their local Catholic businesses. I love that you mentioned that. Well, Paul, thank you so much for your time. We greatly appreciate it. You're doing a tremendous amount of good in the world, so thank you for all your time and energy that you spent.

Paul Thigpen (48:55.19)
James, you're so kind. It's been a delight to talk with you, brother. And I'll be praying that everyone who hears this will be drawn closer to our Lord at the side of his mother.

The Manly Catholic (49:06.218)
Amen. Well, thank you all so much for tuning in and listening. Until next time, go out there and be a saint.