Ep 88 - Resilience and Recovery: The Road Beyond Pornography

Speaker 1: 0:20

Have you ever felt shame? Have you ever felt afraid? Have you ever felt lost but constantly searching? Have you ever felt like you know what you need to do but, as St Paul says, you continue to do the things that you should not do? Today, we have a very eye-opening conversation with Sam Black. Now, for those of you who have heard of Sam, maybe you haven't Sam works with Covenant Eyes, which is an amazing organization who have helped countless men overcome pornography, and we will be speaking about the healing church, what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it. I know a lot of you listening out there have struggled or are struggling with pornography and maybe you've gone to, whether you're Catholic or not. Maybe you've gone to your priest, your local parish priest. Maybe you've gone to your pastor, maybe you've gone to a trusted friend and you might hear me hearing the same thing over and over again, and it's probably things that you've already heard. Or I know it's wrong. I know pornography is wrong. I know masturbation is wrong. I know these things to be true, but how do we fix it? And what Sam and I dive into in this conversation is yes, this might be how it's been taught in the past, but this is how we're teaching it now and this is how we want to teach it in the future. So many great lessons, so many great resources that Sam offers to all men, not just men sorry, I don't want to make this exclusively for men but women too, because women struggle with this too. Men it's more targeted because we are naturally more visual creatures, so pornography tends to have men gravitate towards it. But of course, this is a problem for everyone. So stay tuned. It's an amazing conversation you don't want to miss out. Now, for those of you who are missing out on St Michael's Lent, let me tell you I'm going to shame you into saying that you are missing out on quite a bit. It really has been a fantastic journey. I cannot say enough good things about it. It's a practice, a tradition, that I have never heard about until this year. So thank you, exodus 90, who is putting on this tremendous experience that I have enjoyed again greatly. To top it off, not only are you going through St Michael's Lent with your brotherhood, with your fraternity, but also each week, exodus is offering a series of live talks on the nature of spiritual warfare and how men, specifically, can lean into their authority over the devil as baptized sons of God. You can hear from men who have had a ton of experience dealing with exorcisms, including Father Carlos Martins, who is the host of just a phenomenal podcast titled the Exorcist Files. I highly recommend you check that out. But, more importantly, experience in the daily battle against demons how we can fight this every single day. You, as a man of God, can directly defeat Satan with the help of our Heavenly Father, with St Michael the Archangel, with your guardian angel and all the other angels and saints in heaven. So again down on the Exodus 90 app. You can listen to these talks. These talks are exclusively on the app, so you want to make sure you check that out. You can get a seven day free trial of the Exodus 90 app as well, but without further ado, I want to dive into this amazing conversation I have with, again Sam Black, author of the Healing Church what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it. Enjoy, hello all. Welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and with me we have a very special guest. We have Mr Sam Black. Sam, welcome to the Manly Catholic Podcast.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here and I know we're going to have a good conversation.

Speaker 1: 4:24

Yes, we are Now. For those of you listening out here, sam wrote a new book which I think is a very, extremely important book, especially this day and age, and it's called the Healing Church what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it, most importantly. So Sam has done tremendous work over at Covenant Eyes, which I know a lot of you have heard of. So, sam, just kind of give our listeners a brief intro of yourself and the work that you're doing over at Covenant Eyes right now. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 4:54

I've been at Covenant Eyes for 16 years. Before that I spent 18 years as a journalist. I'm sort of dating myself here a little bit, but spent 18 years as a journalist and joined the Covenant Eyes team 16 years ago, have edited 16 books on the impact of pornography and, as I've served in many roles, literally talked to thousands of men and women one on one and ministry leaders and pastors and so many others, and so when it came time that I could see that there was this deep struggle in the church about. There are so many men and women who are struggling, there are so many parents that need help and information, and so often the church wasn't doing a great job of communicating. And we're often asked at Covenant Eyes well, how do I do this and how do I do that, how should I talk about this and how can we get this conversation started? And we found that they were missing so many of the basic details that, wow, couldn't we just provide a primer to help ministry leaders understand why men and women and teens are becoming stuck in pornography, why they often stay stuck without help, and how we can find true freedom through the church?

Speaker 1: 6:12

Yeah, you tackle pornography, which is just an animal in itself, where there's so many different directions that you can really go into. I mean psychology, our anatomy and how it rewires our brain and how it affects marriages. I mean there's so different avenues. So why did you feel this book in particular was so needed in this day and age?

Speaker 2: 6:39

Wow. Well, pornography is a pernicious trap and it often starts very young and we miss that. We often see many in ministry leadership looking at men and women and saying listen, don't do that. God's not for that, it's terrible for you. Why would you do that? Why would you destroy your, harm your mind, body and spirit with pornography? And don't you realize how it's impacting your family, your marriage? What about the next generation? You know there are so much packed into this right and it feels a lot like, hey, if I boy. I don't want to provide too much on this, this point, but a lot of men and women feel immense amounts of shame and they try harder under their own willpower to get out of this trap, but they find themselves repeatedly going back again and again. So I wanted to help arm ministry leaders with some, first of all, with some empathy, that they just don't know what they don't know, and I want to help them kind of build a model, to help them understand again why people are being stuck in this and how the church really has the answers to this. And so, again, why did I write this? I just found this disconnect between what people were asking for men and women, parents, even for a good guide and ministry leaders who are really pressing in asking hey, I need some answers here. Can Cognitize provide some tool that can really provide me an overview of this issue and how I can take some action? And so, with indeed a great bit of empathy for ministry leaders, I wrote this to help them take action today.

Speaker 1: 9:50

Yeah, and Sam, you brought up a couple of two really important points. And the idea of no, this is such a shameful act and sin that people really struggle with. And also, too, I think we've kind of gotten past where I think people now who struggle with, especially nowadays, they kind of I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like they know the science behind it, you know, especially men it's like okay, look, I know that, I know that it's harmful, I know that it's wrong, I know it's affecting my brain, but I still can't stop. And I think what you've kind of like transitioned into is more that empathy piece. So it's like they might know that. But then, okay, so how can we fix that?

Speaker 2: 10:32

How do we get out of that?

Speaker 1: 10:33

How do we get out of that? I know it's wrong, but I'm still doing it, so I guess let's touch a little bit on the we mentioned the science piece of it. So what, what does pornography actually do? And we'll stick to men's, because men's and women's brains are a little bit different, I know, but we'll stick to the male in particular. What does it do to a male's brain if they're continuously practicing pornography, which obviously can lead to, you know, masturbation and things like that as well?

Speaker 2: 11:01

Well, I think we have to step back a little further and sure and recognize that there are three common components to men who find themselves stuck with in pornography, who said, hey, I don't want to do this anymore and I'm going to quit. And so they quit and that, and they try harder for a little while and they practice their spiritual disciplines, et cetera, for a while, and then something happens what I call a social, what I call C triggers social, emotional, environmental triggers. They get angry, someone yells at them at work, they have a fight with their spouse, they don't feel good about themselves, maybe they failed at something. And then that coin will flip and they'll fall. They'll fall into that, and so they just keep, and then they'll go, they'll hang out in misery for a while, feeling this deep condemnation about their, their acting out with pornography. And then they'll say, well, I'm going to get back on, I'm going to try harder again. And so this coin just keeps flipping from perfectionism to shame, perfectionism to shame. And so we need to look a little harder about how did I get here? And we get the idea, hey, pornography can create neural pathways in the brain that crave it, et cetera. We sort of get that that there's these dopamine things are going on. Maybe we get some of that where, hey, it feels good, the brain likes it. But pornography teaches a lot of lies that maybe evolution made me this way, I'm supposed to be like this, or and I'm supposed to roam to Savannah and find as many people to meet with as I can. And that's not true. So maybe God made me this way. And it just goes on and on, because I've said no to this so many times and yet I keep coming back. So why don't we? I think it's important for us to dive a little bit deeper and, instead of being right here and right now, I'm suddenly stuck with this decision, understand that this has been going on a long time. You just need to admit that to yourself. This isn't a new thing. You've been here likely thousands of times. So let's go back to that first time that you were exposed to pornography. I was 10 years old. I remember walking out of my parents' house and my brother, who was 10 years older than me, was standing next to his car, leaning up against it with his friend, and they were reading a magazine sideways, and that didn't make any sense to a 10-year-old and I said, hey, what are you guys looking at? And they turned it around and I know I'm dating myself a little bit here, but they turned it around. And then they said, hey, you don't want to miss the good part. And they unfolded the centerfold. But I didn't even know what they were trying to get at because I didn't even understand the basic mechanics of sex at that age. But why is it that I can tell you a whole story about that? The truth is probably you and most guys listening here today can tell you a whole story about that. That's how impactful pornography is on the male brain. Every child is naturally curious about what the opposite sex looks like without clothes. That's natural. That's natural curiosity. But when children see other children's bodies, they might be curious and they show and tell or something like that. They see other children's bodies. But when you see pornography, especially today's degrading, demeaning, violent, excessive pornography today, it is truly impactful, shocking, startling to that brain. So dopamine kicks off naturally because sexual cues are picked up, even if you don't understand them. And so dopamine kicks off and gives you, it focuses your attention. Now, in God's design that's beautiful, because in God's design, dopamine focuses your attention on your spouse, the rest of the world disappears and you are in a beautiful and loving relationship. It becomes, as John Paul would say, it became a spiritual relationship. It wasn't just sex. It is on so many. When John Paul II talks about theology of the body. If you get a chance to look at that, it is amazing of what the spiritual connection is in our sexuality. So dopamine can focus your attention so much, to the point of tunnel vision. And so pornography is not sex, it's the hijacking of what God created. So dopamine also helps burn those emotional experiences into your brain. And it kicked off a little more with norepinephrine, and norepinephrine is associated also with fight or flight. So today's pornography is so shocking, etc. So that young brain got hit with a ton of bricks, let's just face that right. And it was enough enticing and exciting that we went back. I had a friend and his dad had pornography that was falling out of his closet. It looked a lot like a waterfall and if you can imagine this closet with a shelf up at the top stacked with pornography hardcore pornography and things are falling down over the shelf and there's a pile of it on the floor. I could take anything I wanted and I did, and that began a repetition use, and that repetitive use is very important because our brains are more plastic than they are ceramic. You've heard of the term neuroplasticity, and neuroplasticity simply means that with repetition, your brain can create new pathways that know how to do an activity better, or even begin to crave an activity more, especially when it gets the rewards of dopamine and serotonin and all these neurochemicals that flood the brain from orgasm and masturbation with pornography. So the two. Now not only is you burning neural pathways into it, but now that they're being associated with I get when I view pornography, I get hits of pleasure. I go back to that. Now. That sounds pretty basic, right, the problem is number three is alright. So we have three commonalities One, early exposure. Two, the repetitious use. And number three, some drama or trauma. That often happened early in life. I personally came from a Christian home. It was a violent, hypocritically violent home and so, without even understanding it, soon the use of pornography became associated with I need to escape. So if I felt fear or frustration or anger or depression, maybe I don't feel some self-worth, et cetera, I can run to pornography and I don't even realize that I was doing that, that I'd begun to escapism. That would include things, triggers like boredom or what have you and so that early exposure, the repetitious use, the drama or trauma that turns into escapism with pornography. Now, whenever I feel upset, angry, depressed or any of the other triggers that happen, my escape, even subconsciously, before you even know that I'm headed down that road is hey, you can find the relief through pornography. Now that sounds crazy, doesn't it? But here's a perfect answer. Wait, wait, wait, sam, sam, you're saying I don't have control over my brain. Your brain has been conditioned. If you feel like you have promised yourself, you promised others, you promised God that you'd never go back to pornography again and you keep finding yourself going back, then something is amiss. And it's not just your sexual desire, because there's other ways you can manage it right, but instead you continue to go back to pornography. I'll give you an example this will really sound crazy to some of the guys listening here when I was 12 years old and I do talk about this in the book. And, by the way, if you'd like to download the first chapter of the book and the introduction, you can go to thehealingchurchcom and there's a free download there. You can buy the book wherever you normally buy books online, so let's talk about the crazy here. So I would-.

Speaker 1: 19:40

We love crazy here.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Let's go back to when I'm 12 years old and I'm working in the shed with my dad and my dad there is a rope that's over in the corner and it's a gnarly rope that's set in the back of a truck and in the Florida sun and the rain that happens daily, so it gets rained on and then gets sunshine on it, rained on in sunshine, and so this rope has been conditioned to be a wadded mess. Yeah, and so my dad says I want you to wind up that rope. And so, like I've done ever, for as much as I've done it and my years of being a 12-year-old, I began taking that rope and I'll coil the rope from my hand over my elbow, my hand over my elbow right, that's how I know, how I know how to do it. And he goes no, no, no, no. I want you to do it hand over hand and you want me to coil it like this. But when I would do that, this gnarly twisted hemp rope would twist and whatever it would twist, he would hit me. He'd hit me in the back, in the face, in the head, and tell me I was a dummy and I couldn't do anything. Right, and et cetera. Right, and the more I would mess up and I'd panic and I'd begin rolling around my elbow and arm again, and he of course hit me because I wasn't doing the way he told me to right. So the hitting continues. So let's walk with me through my teenage years and my adult years. And every time I began coiling something, whether it's a rope or an extension cord or something like that I go back to that day as a 12-year-old. Now. I don't just remember it, I relive it. I think of different outcomes. I think of coming to that boy's rescue. I think of fighting off my dad and telling him how wrong he is and all these right. So that will darken my mood. And maybe I was a little shorter with my wife, maybe I how I mowed the lawn was was, uh, dwelt on that anger and sooner or later that day it was likely that I also went to pornography. It was simply to anesthetize this emotion and this mood that I couldn't seem to let go. Now you can say, hey, sam, well, you need to just learn forgiveness and let that, let that stuff go, let it just forget it. Oh, I tried that. I'd stuff it. I would do all kinds of things, but when I got into relationship with other men who understood that, hey, sam, you're struggling with pornography and I'd love to know why. What you're feeling today? Right, what are you feeling, what are you thinking, what are you doing and what are you thinking of doing? And with those kinds of questions, I could unpack that this was a, this is something that's affecting my mood today, and so they would say, well, let's unpack that. How did that make you feel? Do you know that was you know that was abusive to you, sam, you know that wasn't right. Well, yeah, I know it wasn't right, but and I would have never told that story to anyone before I became into recovery because it was too shameful. Not only was it shameful about shame about pornography, but I had shame about coming from a violent home, because wouldn't you think less of me if you knew that my dad was a violent man? I mean, there was. Wouldn't you think less of me if to say, oh well, maybe he didn't come from a really great home? What kind of guy is he? So all these things get unpacked right and this, this shame, keeps us small. It keeps us isolated, and Satan loves to keep you isolated. He likes to keep you out of community, and the opposite of addiction is relationship, it's community. And so, as I would unpack those kinds of stories with other men, I began to do some different things, because now I can make different choices right when I am open and honest with you. Now I can make, I'm empowered to make better choices. We can talk about what was happening. And so I would begin to sing, and it'd be songs like a deep, the father's love for us, and I would sing as I to my heavenly father, as I'm calling a rope or an extension cord. With this beautiful time, calling a extension cord or rope no longer had any impact on me. I could let, I could process that memory with other men, with a counselor, and realize a whole bunch there. Is that memory still in control of me, or am I? Do I have a beautiful life in Christ, know that I am a loved son of God, that I am a father and a husband and a man who wants to follow after Christ in heart? Now I can either dwell in all that pain or I can begin to release it to other godly men who are willing to walk with me in a safe place with a safe process, and find real freedom, not just freedom from pornography, but more wholeness. Because when you begin going through a safe place in a safe process, the corners of the room get the light up, all the dark corners get the light up, the closets doors get to be opened and examined, it's contents examined and some things emptied out. And now I'm not just escaping from pornography, I'm living a more whole life. I just went off on a tangent man. I just went for it.

Speaker 1: 25:43

And Sam, I love it. I first of all thank you for sharing. That was a very powerful story and I'm so sorry for your 12-year-old self-hit that had to go through that. I mean, abuse in children is something that should never happen, and I would just thank you again for sharing and God bless you for what you've done. You turn that into a tremendous blessing for other men as well, because you overcame that.

Speaker 2: 26:12

You know you're getting hear guys making comments on your page et cetera, that say, oh, you know, I felt those things, or I came from those homes or something like that. But there's going to be some other men who are listening and go. You know, my parents didn't hit me, they got divorced, but that was no big deal. Or my, I just got yelled at something, that was no big deal, right. And so you're going to find a lot of men who are listening, who are going to begin minimizing the struggles they went through and don't, please don't try to compare your struggle to my struggle. And many guys are going, oh, you think that's bad, sam? This is what I went through as a child, and so there's a whole spectrum, but often small wounds are just as impactful as those tough wounds, especially small wounds over time, repeatedly. And so, listen, guys, you got to face the wounding that you've had there and I can't encourage you enough to be in a group where you can begin a study. We have a great program called Strive. You can check it out at scrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetri vetrivetrivetrivetrivetri. You can check it out at scrivetrivetrivetrivetrivetri vetrivetri. And you get to go through this 21 day detox from pornography and there is a Catholic version of it that really is so connected. It is just an amazing tool to help you understand your first 21 days of breaking free. Share that with your ally, a friend, a group. Go through that together and, if you'd like to, you're like well, I'd really like to begin talking to other men in my church. I just don't know where how to get started. There's an organization called SamsonSocietycom. Samsonsocietycom it's just a community of Christian men who are working together to support one another in something that's bigger than they are. That's typically for pornography and unwanted sexual behaviors, although guys are facing other things in there as well.

Speaker 1: 28:19

And I will leave links in the show notes for you guys, for all those things that Sam just mentioned. But, sam, another thing you touched on and I really think this is just such a key component is the amount of shame that overwhelms us, and exactly what you mentioned. Satan will use that every single time. He uses our wounds against us. The fact is that you're worthless, you're stupid. You can't fight this. You can't get over this. You like doing this. God hates you because you keep falling. I mean, the lie just keeps going on and on.

Speaker 2: 28:52

And here it described this shame. S-h-a-m-e is self-hatred at my expense. Self-hatred at my expense. I so discuss it with myself. I'm so ashamed of what I'm doing. I don't want anybody else to know, so I keep it hidden, I keep isolated and it's just doing more damage to me.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Yeah, yes, 100%, yeah. And the ironic thing exactly what you mentioned too is when you do share that with someone, they don't think less of you. When you were telling me that story, I didn't think anything less of you. I actually thought more of you because I'm like, oh my gosh, he overcame this and he's doing all these incredible things, and so the biggest lie is that people are going to hate you and they're not going to be your friend. They're going to think you're weird or crazy, like no people. Then they might come up and share something with you that they have not shared with anyone else, and that's what that brotherhood of sharing that, like you mentioned going into those groups, sam is so important. That we, as men, come together and we talk about our weaknesses because that's the only way we can get stronger is giving it to God and giving it to each other as well as brothers in Christ, because we cannot do this alone. We try it so many times and we fall on our head every single time, so authenticity builds an intimate connection that is contagious and it's empowering, with a safe place.

Speaker 2: 30:19

You realize that you are not a problem, that you're a person and that your identity is found in Christ and not in your sin, and so we need that authenticity. We need to be able to come to other men. Let's see, we need to. You know some guys are thinking, yeah, but I'm the only guy. I'm the only one who struggles like this, and at least in my community and my community of men in my church. Right, everybody else has got the other. I don't. Two thirds of men in the church say they are having ongoing struggle with pornography. 37% of men of all ages say they're using it multiple times a week, and men 18 to 30 say they're using it daily. So there's and don't, but don't use those excuse concepts. Yeah, I see so many guys struggle with pornography. It's just, it's okay, it's just part of who we are Right. That's not true either, right?

Speaker 1: 33:12

Yeah. So that's actually a perfect segue where I wanted to kind of take this event to you know, because another statistic I read is that only 7% of churches actually offer some sort of program or resource for men who are struggling with this, and it's such a prominent issue. So I guess we'll kind of transition from pornography itself into the church, and I know you mentioned a little bit at the beginning of sort of how the church has addressed us in the past maybe. So maybe we'll rehash that a little bit and we'll kind of dive into how prominent this is an issue, even at, you know, in the ministerial level, and how we can kind of transition into how we can address it nowadays in a more effective way.

Speaker 2: 34:00

So there's a lot packed into those sentences.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Yes, there is what's the most important thing to get. First, let us hit. How has the church traditionally and I know that's a very broad topic, I mean there's Catholicism and Protestantism and things like that the church in general as you, as you address it in your book how have they traditionally addressed pornography use in the past? We'll start there.

Speaker 2: 34:30

So often it's just been two taboos, so only 7% again of churches are doing anything and we've made it tough for ministry leaders and our pastors and priests to really speak about this. Well, we've often said, hey, you can't talk about that today. You know you began going a little over the edge there. I remember talking to a pastor who said I was reading from scripture and use the word prostitute in the Bible as I'm teaching about rehab Good work, that was the word. It's in Scripture. But several ladies in the church really gave the pastor a good talking to about how he used the word prostitute in the Bible in a sermon. Right, and he says so, sam, what should I have done? And I said what, what you should tell them to grow up, right.

Speaker 1: 35:33

Have some maturity, first of all, ladies.

Speaker 2: 35:38

We often fear that and sometimes minister leaders have feared that if I say something about pornography, well, that will make them curious like they've never heard of it before and they'll go looking for it. But of course that's not the struggle. The struggle is that it's often started at such an early age and we've ignored it for so long and we've not empowered parents to talk about it. And since we're not talking about it, we might talk about it at a men's event, right Might, and if it is, it'll say, hey, a lot of guys are struggling and you need to stop that. Don't do that. God's not for that. But they don't really ever get any help. They get some warnings, but the warnings don't lead you to a place of discipleship and direct understanding of how did I get here, why do I stay stuck and how can I live in freedom? We I've often missed that. Like me, I was a prisoner of my own making. I put every stone and block in place. I put every bar in place over time, from the time of being 10 years old and, yes, did others contribute and help me build that? Yeah, sure, but when you get it all in place, you lock the door and you throw away the key and, by the way, nobody keeps the key. Nobody keeps the key. So until I have another guy like you, james, that can come over and unlock that door and say, sam, do you want to be well, just like Jesus did to the paralytic, do you want to be well? And if I can say, james, I'll tell you what. It does a lot for me and I don't know if I want to be well. Right, I could answer in that way. And that's where some guys who say, yeah, I'm a Christian, but Christ forgives, and I confess that, and as I've gone to confession and I've let that go, but are you confessing the same thing over and over again? Your sin grows, grace abounds all the more. That's scripture, right. But does Paul says do I continue to send? By no means, by no means do I continue in my sin. We need to have faced this issue well. So how can we help that man or woman that says pastor, I really do want help. Ministry leader, I really do want help. I'm a Christian, but I'm a Christian, but I'm a Christian, but I really do want to be well. Well, we need a safe place and a safe process, and the warnings have been helpful. They've at least informed us that what the path that we're on isn't working. But what we need is a safe place with a safe process, through organizations like PURE DESIRE or Covenant Eyes. There's a great resource called the Victory app by Covenant Eyes and it's free. Go to your Play Store or App Store and download the Victory app by Covenant Eyes and we walk you through a journey that helps you understand, from a mind, body and spirit perspective, how this has impacted your brain, how it has impacted your thought life, how it has taught you so many lies about who you are and walks you, and we encourage you to do these courses with the brother in Christ. Go through them and you'll really have an awakening. Now here's the cool thing having had a spiritual awakening, we always have to give back, and so, as we are even on our own journey, we need to call other men into this journey as well to help them, because they're stuck too, and as you experience more and more freedom, you can be a light and a guide to other people who are struggling. Here's an amazing thing that I discovered in writing this book and I say discovered, I really discovered studies from sociologists from the University of Oklahoma and elsewhere, and what they found was there was a direct correlation between a one spiritual life and pornography. That it was. With pornography use, people had increased doubts about God, less in prayer life, less in scripture reading, less engagement. In fact, there was direct correlation of how much pornography someone used and whether they'll volunteer or serve in their church over the next six years. Oh, wow, how interesting what we found at every church I visited where they were doing this work. Well, men and women were giving back more, having had found a safe place and a real process that took them on a journey of understanding and encouragement and growth and life change. They said, hey, I'm willing to do that, I'll take care of that. They're not only their belief blossom, they felt closer to Christ, they had increased scripture reading, they had greater church attendance and they were ready to tell their church hey, I'll do that, I'll take on that activity, I'll give back, because when you've had that kind of awakening, you can't help but want to give it back to others.

Speaker 1: 42:15

Yeah, sam gosh, and again so many key points there. But it kind of stepping back a little bit when you talked about you know, if someone comes to a pastor or a priest or something, they ask hey, I'm really struggling with this. You know, it's kind of take the Jesus approach, Like you said, it's love them, have compassion with them, but then also loving them is what Jesus say, you know he heals them, but he says go and sin no more.

Speaker 2: 42:46

We love you too much to leave you the way you are.

Speaker 1: 42:49

Exactly, yes, yes, and it's not that, you know, watered down. Oh, you know, jesus is all about grace, and of course he was. But then he challenges you, he transforms you and he tells you to do that, and so that's the step that we're trying to go in. Organizations like Coming in and Dyes and all the resources you mentioned as well, they're walking alongside you because it's not just shame the person to death, because they already feel enough shame, and if you're just adding on top of that from a leader, it actually is, it's honestly it's probably more harmful than if they didn't go to them in the first place, to be honest, because it's like, well, this is, you know, a man of God and and he's telling me that you know, I'm, you know, going to go to hell or whatever he might say, if you don't stop this, you know you're going to kill your marriage and things like that. So really can create just kind of opening that wound up, that the that the individual, the man or woman, is experiencing, and just kind of pouring salt on the wound.

Speaker 2: 43:43

Well, I think that the warnings are fine, as long as you're backed up with love and cares and community. Listen, paul warned us very, very strongly. He said when you send out, when you send sexually, all the other sins, well, those are outside the body, but when you send sexually, you're sinning against your own body. He's not wasn't just going, oh, that's a naughty or sin. He was warning us. He was saying hey, listen, you got to understand. This is more impactful, more hurtful to you and others. There is going to create, you're going to create a blast zone around you when it comes to the surface and you don't want this. This is, this is more damaging than you know. Please, I'm begging you, don't go down this road. You know it is a great warning. But he then wants us to be in the church and to seek out one another. How many one another's are there in the Bible? And chapter 6 of Ecclesiastes tells us that when we are alone, we are a lone sheep, as a dead sheep in a fight fall and a ditch, and I don't have anybody pick me up. It says you whoa, is you right? You're in trouble.

Speaker 1: 44:55

Yeah, you're in trouble.

Speaker 2: 44:57

So you know, two or three can defend themselves at one. Caught alone, he's going to get beat up. Well, stop getting beat up because you're going. This alone finds help and support. Reach out to other brothers and Christ, find community. You again visit that. Strive 21.com. Share that with a friend Again. Download the victory app by CovenantEyes. Given that deeper understanding of man, I've got an idea of a little bit of how I got here after listening, but there's much more to this than you can imagine, and so it's worth the study, it's worth jumping into and, by the way, there's audio versions in there that help you get through it quickly. So great tool.

Speaker 1: 45:45

Yeah, absolutely. Now, sam I know this is more of a personal question, for your personal anecdote You've been a CovenantEyes for about 16 years. Obviously things have changed. You know, media obviously has taken off, made porn more accessible. Have you found, I would guess, that pornography use is more prominent nowadays? Or it could be wrong, maybe it was just as prominent back then. Just maybe more people are speaking out about it now. I mean, I'm not sure you can touch on that too, but have you found that I guess the reasons for pornography are pretty much the same, or have that has also shifted with kind of the way our culture has shifted as well, kind of a more open sexuality, if you will, versus kind of more the traditional view of sexuality, maybe in the past, or traditional marriage and things like that?

Speaker 2: 46:35

Well, certainly. Well, this is interesting. There was a study done back in the 80s and they can't repeat it because they need a control group that hasn't seen pornography. So they believe they tried to do it again, as I understand, but they weren't able to redo this study. So they had control groups of I've not seen pornography and we're going to exposure to. I believe it was a number of 15 minute clips over a period of time and I think it added up to about six hours, five hours, of watching video clips, and it was just everything from Disney to I don't know family-oriented stuff. Then there was a somewhat exposure group to pornography, some soft core, a mix of family movies and soft core or, yeah, pornography, right. And then there was a third group and all they were exposed to is pornography. When they got done with the study, the correlations of that showed amazing difference between those who had not seen pornography and those who had and those who had seen pornography and this part has been repeated many times measuring your sexual satisfaction with your spouse In every study ever done. Those who have the most sexual satisfaction don't use pornography. Those who have used pornography on a regular basis have the least sexual satisfaction. All right. So that was one cue, but they also found many other things like that that it tainted how they viewed others, that they even went so far as to say they gave each of these control groups or each of these groups, the same story of a rapist who had committed this rape and we'd like you to give a sentence. And the high exposure group I think it was five to six hours of pornography, oh my gosh, chased, compared to the group who had not seen pornography gave a sentence of half. So what really changes how you think? And it begins to normalize that. And, for instance, the group, the higher exposure group, which is like a Friday or Saturday night, tonight or today, they also said non-monogamous and sort of hook up culture sex was more normal than the other said, oh no, that doesn't happen. This. The other group said, oh yeah, that happens a lot, that's probably okay. So has it changed our views? In 2007, we had the iPhone released. Before that we had the iPad or iPod and you could still watch video for there and through those mechanisms were have been used a lot. We've been carrying around the world's largest library of pornography ever created in the history of mankind and we carried around in our pocket. Has that impacted how we think, what our values are? Of course, and so is there a greater. But interestingly enough, in 2016, this and I don't even know that sounds like a few years ago now, time Magazine had on its front cover and it said a generation of men raised on pornography are becoming advocates for turning it off. And they came at it from a totally secular point of view. They said you know, in the past we've heard religious groups rail about pornography, but these groups are totally from coming at it from a secular point of view, saying pornography is damaging my relationships, it's damaging my sex life. I've struggled. Porn induced a reptile dysfunction. It is having so many negative effects on my life overall that I'm looking for help and seeking to find where I am. We believe in it or not have had members of Covenant Eyes who have said listen, you need to understand that my husband today has been so impacted by pornography that he can no longer reach orgasm unless he's watching it on the TV set. Even if you are listening here and if you used pornography to get excited with your no-transcript, you need to understand that you have a deep struggle that thinking about pornography so you can get excited enough to reach orgasm or become more excited when you're with a physical human being shows it has had some serious and negative impact on you. Do something about it today. Don't wait.

Speaker 1: 52:05

Amen, yeah, that's heartbreaking. And just hearing that and I'm sure you've heard countless stories like that too and the whole point of Sam coming on, I mean, obviously the book is fantastic, but it's also to really the message that you are not this porn addiction or you are not. That that is not, that does not define you and, like we mentioned many times now, you know Satan will use that every single time. But you are so much more than you are a son of God, you are a daughter of God for all the women listening and he loves you and he, he is way bigger than this addiction. He's way bigger than Satan. So Sam has has dropped so many incredible resources and I will drop, I will make sure that you guys have access to those as well, but just know that you are more than you can rise above that. But but another key takeaway too is the importance of obviously not not being shamed by it, but also seeking that help. And because there are strength in numbers, you cannot do this alone. I'm sure you've tried. Most of you have probably tried if you are struggling this on your own, and maybe you did, you were successful, or maybe it worked for a while, like Sam mentioned. But then you something happened. You know, and you know traumas in life happen and then you go right back to where you were before. So I mean, that's that's my, my few takeaways, that that I have here tonight. But, Sam, I guess what kind of transition to. I know we've talked a lot about about seeking help for those individuals out there who are struggling with that. Is there any other key, maybe one or two key takeaways for our listeners there? Maybe they are struggling. They're hearing this for the first time, like all this is really opening my eyes to seeking help. What would you to say those individuals right now?

Speaker 2: 54:00

Don't wait. Procrastination kills good intentions. We want to do the right thing and we're thinking, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, but then we'll, I'll put it off to next week. Don't wait, Do something right now. And if the only thing you do right now is to begin broadening your understanding, then then do that. Do that for free. Download the victory app by covenant eyes and again, there's 30 courses in there and it really helps. And that knowledge brings understanding and understanding is comes before change. So without the knowledge we don't have understanding. Without understanding we don't. We can't learn to really find change in our lives. Second talk to a friend maybe join a group like Samson Society at samsonsocietycom, but reach out to others and God has so much more for you. Don't wait Because, again, procrastination kills good intentions. Act now.

Speaker 1: 55:07

Thank you so much, sam. Now you talked about you know the healing church, what it used to get wrong and how to fix it. Do you feel like the church, do you feel like there's hope that the church is starting to recognize that, okay, maybe how we did in the past was was was incorrect and it was harmful, but they've recognized that now clearly? Do you feel like there's hope moving forward that, hey, the church got it right now? Now we're moving in the right direction to help so many people that have been impacted by this, by this industry?

Speaker 2: 55:37

There has been a growth in the Church of wanting to address this rather than just shoving it into carpet. More are wanting to work on it. I believe it was in 2016, it might have been a little later than that but the Catholic United States Catholic bishops created a pastoral document called Create in Me a Clean Heart and from that, and working with parishes and dioceses, we created a resource called Safe Haven Sunday and we have partnered with more than 40 parishes and arched I'm sorry, 40 diocese and arched diocese across the nation to help them to have a Safe Haven Sunday program and you can learn more about that at covenantizecom and just do a search for Safe Haven Sunday and you'll find it on our website and that is helping parents begin having a restorative and redemptive conversation with their kids. We've also, within that program, created a resource called Restored Vows and it is helping. Its video and reading that really helps you understand. Okay, how has this impacted my marriage? How can I create healing for both myself and my wife as we take these next steps? So strive again, a beautiful Catholic resource and that so many priests today have in their confessional a strive card. And so if you're talking about pornography to your priest. He may indeed hand you a card that has strive on it and leads you through that 21D detox from pornography. So, yes, I believe the church is waking up to this and wanting to press in, but they're looking for people who's saying, yes, I'm ready to face this too.

Speaker 1: 57:45

Amen, yeah, again, strengthen numbers the more knowledge. As you mentioned, knowledge is power and also knowing that enemy as well, knowing your weaknesses, knowing what Satan's going to always try to do to come after you. So the more knowledge we can have it, it makes it easier to fight this enemy that we have. Well, sam, thank you so much for your time. We greatly appreciate it. I know you've dropped a lot of links and resources. Is there anything else you want our listeners to know? I'm going to have a list of about 15 resources for all of you, but is there anything else you want our listeners?

Speaker 2: 58:20

to know If I'm listening more. They're just going. Oh man, he just blew up my brain.

Speaker 1: 58:23

That's too much. That's just too much. Well, again, thank you so much, sam. Thank you and God bless for the work that you guys are doing over at Covenant Eyes. I know personally I've known a few people who have benefited tremendously from it, so thank you for all of you that are working over there and helping men and women with this struggle.

Speaker 2: 58:48

It is an honor to serve. Thank you for having this podcast and for addressing a tough topic and doing it well. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 58:58

My pleasure and thank you for your time. Thank you all for listening. Until next time, go out there and be a Saint.