Ep 94 - Dismantling the Hollywood Portrayal of Exorcism with Father Vincent Lampert

Speaker 1: 0:19

Right, Well, I'll welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and back again we have Mr Father Vincent Lampert. Father Vince, thank you so much for coming back. How are you doing? Good morning, James. It's good to be with you again. Yes, yes, it's been. It's. I've been binge watching all your talks and everything on YouTube, so I feel like I've I've gotten to know you even more, and having you back on the podcast, it's always a privilege and honor. So thank you again. But before we get going, Father, do you mind starting us off in a word of prayer?

Speaker 2: 0:55

Yes, in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, amen. Loving God, as we come together at this time, we pray for your blessing upon all of us, upon all those who will listen to this podcast and make this conversation enable people to think about their own relationship with you, to truly cast out of their lives anything that is contrary to the faith and, in doing so, to be able to draw more closely to you. Send your blessing upon all of us now, in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Amen, amen, thank you, father. So for those of you who do not get a chance to listen to the first episode, that was episode 76. So Father Lampert gave a bit of a background on himself, so I won't dive in the full background, but he's been an exorcist for the Archdiocese of Indianapolis since 2005,. Correct, father Vince? Yes, perfect, been a priest for 32 years back on June 1st, and he wrote a book titled Exorcism the Battle against Satan and his Demons. He's given numerous talks, podcast interviews. You can find all of that on YouTube. He's a man who's very generous with his time in educating laypeople about exorcism. So, father Lampert, again, thank you so much for being here. So I mentioned before I told some people I was interviewing you and that you were an exorcist, so naturally I got a boatload of questions. So I thought we could do a bit of a rapid fire round of questions to just kick us off, if that's okay. Yes, let's do it. All, right, perfect. So first one is how accurate are movie depictions of exorcisms? I know there's so many out there now, especially there's one with Russell Crow, I think, the Pope's exorcist, which I know there's too many. You can't see all of them, but from what you have seen. How accurate, would you say, those depictions are?

Speaker 2: 2:44

I think the depictions of the demonic are very accurate. I think where Hollywood may miss the target is they're more focused on the theatrics of the demonic, whereas in the Ministry of Exorcism the focus is always on the power of God in liberating people who were up against the forces of evil. So Hollywood is always interested in what the devil is doing, but the church is always more interested in what God is doing through the Ministry of Exorcism.

Speaker 1: 3:16

Yeah, I think too I've heard you mentioned before like in the exorcist. I haven't seen the exorcist in a long time, but at the end I think the priest basically asked tells the demon to come into me and send me to say a priest would never, under any circumstances, ever do that, because that's just asking for a whole assault of demonic activity. So is that correct?

Speaker 2: 3:36

Yeah, demons are very legalistic, authoritative. If somebody gives them a right over them, they're simply. They're certainly going to take advantage of that, and I can't imagine any priest who's an exorcist, who's working with someone who's possessed, is going to tell the demon to come into them. That seems to be a very big poetic license on the part of filmmakers when it comes to the demonic.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Well, not to mention too, I mean, how joyful the demons would be if a Catholic priest would basically give them permission to come into them. I mean that would just be scandalous. You know, in my mind, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Because, again, in an exorcism, the priest himself as an individual doesn't have any particular powers or abilities. The authority comes from Christ himself, who gave it to the church and his ministers. So if a priest is going to step outside of the confines or structure of the ministry of exorcism, then he could certainly be getting himself into trouble, and that's what the demonic would want for the priest to begin to focus more on himself, what he's doing, rather than having the power and the authority of the church behind him. All right, the next one here.

Speaker 1: 4:56

I know you kind of mentioned this, the first podcast, but how do you know if someone is possessed? I know I think we get a refresher kind of the protocol that the church goes through that you mentioned. All the time, too, exorcists are trained to be skeptics.

Speaker 2: 5:09

So when somebody says that they're possessed or dealing with the demonic, I should be the last person to believe that. So here in the United States is a very strict protocol that's followed. In fact, if the church were to label someone as a demon, if the church were to label someone as being possessed and that label would prevent them from getting the true help that they need, either from their family doctor or from the mental health field, then the church would actually be doing more harm than good. So in the United States the person is required to have some type of a psychiatric evaluation. They're required to have a physical examination by a medical doctor. Again asking these experts is there something about this person's condition that is outside of their knowledge, their training, their understanding of what it is that the person may be going through? It is important to note that the church is not asking the psychiatrist or the doctor if someone is possessed. The church herself will make that determination, but the church wants the best possible information that she can get. Therefore, she will rely on these experts to rule out whether or not it's a mental health condition or somebody has a physical condition, maybe a negative reaction to medication that they're on, for example.

Speaker 1: 6:33

Yeah, and do you mind too, I guess, diving deeper in there, because I know you mentioned a story a few times, I guess a more concrete example, where someone actually came to you and you talked about they were, I think, diagnosed with schizophrenia and then you actually met with his psychiatrist and, I think, doctor too. Do you mind relaying that story? Because I think for people too they're like okay, that sounds great in theory, but is it actually laid out where someone might come with a true mental illness but then they're labeled possessed? So maybe just expand on that a little bit to give people a concrete example.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Yeah. So I had a man who was referred to me by his parish priest. He had been diagnosed as being schizophrenic. He believed that it was demonic in nature, that he was possessed. So I did meet with him and talk with him and then I determined that it certainly was not demonic. But I wasn't just going to say it's not demonic, be on your way. So I arranged a meeting with him and myself, his psychiatrist and caseworker, and then the four of us were having a conversation and I said, in my opinion, to this man I said you are not possessed. And then the psychiatrist said to the man father says that you're not possessed. What is your response? And he said he goes, I'm disappointed. And then he said to the psychiatrist you can put a label on me and tell me that I'm schizophrenic, but you can't tell me why. He says if it was the devil, then I would have my why. So I do think there's a lot of people that may be struggling with mental health issues and they're trying to figure out well, why me? And oftentimes, if it's the devil, then they can have the answer to that question 100%.

Speaker 1: 8:18

Yeah, ok, I knew this one was going to come, but what is the craziest or wildest exorcism you have seen?

Speaker 2: 8:28

You know, the craziest or the wildest, I would say, are always those that happened at the beginning when I began this ministry. So I began back in 2005. So I've been doing this ministry now for 18 years and the reason I say at the beginning is because it's something new. I'm getting acclimated to doing the ministry and I would say that the people I deal with today, the same theatrics are there, but maybe I just become more I don't know accustomed to dealing with these things and it's almost a normal part of my priestly ministry, so that it doesn't really faze me that much anymore. Again, because I know the power of God is certainly greater than the power of evil, I did an extra system one time and when the demon manifested, the demon bit the person's lip that they were possessing and then blood was coming out of their mouth. And then took the person's hand and put it in the blood and then drew a pentagram on the wall in the room with the blood and then began to howl and scream and foam at the mouth and throw out profanities and that type of thing. So you're looking at a demon that's manifesting this hideous, grotesque look the howls and the screams, blood pouring out of the mouth, and now there's a pentagram on the wall that certainly can get anyone's attention.

Speaker 1: 9:59

Just for our folks maybe, who don't know what is a pentagram.

Speaker 2: 10:03

A pentagram would be a demonic symbol, like an upside down star in a circle. Usually it's associated with the devil.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Do you feel like Father Lampert, that I don't know, I'm sure the demons, they recognize you when you walk in, like, oh, here comes the exorcist. Do you feel like they because I know I mean you always and I love this about you and all exorcists that I hear talk about you're like I do absolutely nothing, it's all Jesus. You know he's the true exorcist. But do you feel like, like, maybe, when they walk in there, do you feel like the intensity, maybe, of the manifestations are decreased at all, because like, oh, we can't rattle this guy? Or do you feel like it hasn't really changed throughout your, you know, 15 plus years of being an exorcist?

Speaker 2: 10:50

The devil certainly knows those who are working to defeat him, and usually in the case when an exorcist walks in, the demon will actually try to hide, so to speak. Demons don't really want to be in the spotlight, because when they're in the spotlight, when they're manifesting, then the battle against them can take place, and sometimes they may kind of retreat, so to speak, meaning there's still that attachment to the person, but the manifestations are not there, Because the devil would want the exorcist to believe that either the person is not truly possessed or that the demon has retreated and is no longer manifesting in this person. And so we might even a good way to look at it would be that in an exorcism, a demon is commanded to return that which it has stolen, Namely a person created in the image and likeness of God, and the way that they're forced to return that person is to cast them into the light of Jesus Christ. So they would want to retreat to the shadows, so the battle against them would not begin.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Okay, next one. Can you actually sell your soul to the devil?

Speaker 2: 12:07

People use that term. Yeah, I would. The term I prefer would be to unite their free will with the will of the demon. You know, the one thing that God does not have from us is our free will, but that's the thing that God desires. So God created all of us and then he gives us the choice to either invite him in or to send him away. Even in the book of Revelation, in chapter 3, jesus stands at the door and knocks. He doesn't kick the door down and come in and say here I am to save the day, so that there is that invitation. We have to make the choice, and certainly the devil would want us not to make the choice for God. So people do use that term sell their soul to the devil. But the soul really is the realm of God within each and every person, and so I would prefer to use the term unite their free will with that of the demon. But even if a person does that, we can repent, we can change, we can say that was a stupid thing to do. You know, the demons would have us believe that once we make a pact with the devil, it's one and done. We can't do anything about it. But again. We certainly can, because again we can grow in our understanding. As Catholics we like to say that conversion is an ongoing process. We never say that I accept it, christ, and now it's done. No, that marks the beginning of a journey of faith and we know that on that journey of faith maybe we step outside of that faith. At times we sin, and when we sin we should repent, and when we repent we draw closer to God. But when we don't repent or try to justify our sinfulness, we move ourselves further and further away from God and in doing so we could be putting ourselves within the realm of the devil.

Speaker 1: 14:00

I know you mentioned too that uniting of the will to Satan. Would that be what I think I've heard you talk about as like a perfect possession when, like even the manifestations, it's not as profound because there's really no? I think I heard you mention actually, when you see manifestations, that's actually a good sign because that means there's actually an internal struggle going on between like the person wants to be freed, but in a perfect possession it's actually can be more difficult. Is that accurate?

Speaker 2: 14:28

Yes, so a perfect possession would be someone unites their free will with the will of the demon that's trying to possess them. And when they unite their free will with that of the demon, they live in a harmonious relationship. And because they're living in harmony, then there really is no need to manifest, because the devil knows that they have won this person over. And usually in these cases, a perfect possession that might be the term where that people commonly use that somebody sells their soul to the devil.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Makes sense. So next question is how do you know if someone, or when someone, has actually been liberated from a possession?

Speaker 2: 15:10

That's an excellent question, because oftentimes demons will give the false impression that they have been cast out so that the priests will stop. When I was training to be an exorcist in Rome back in 2006, I sat in on 40 exorcisms that the Franciscan priest who was training me performed, and one of those exorcisms the demon gave the false impression that had been cast out, even said to the priest I know there's other people waiting to see you, I don't want to take up any more of your time, you can stop praying. And then the priest just kind of looked at the face of the person and there's the demon staring back. And then the priest knew that the demon was trying to fool him and he just took holy water and blessed them again. And then the demon shouted out I told you you could stop praying. Now. One of the ways that I've seen in the years that I've done the ministry is that when a demon is cast out, there's almost a glow about the person and the best way to really understand that glow would be to think of a painting or a picture of a saint when you see a halo around their head. That halo is the glory of God. They're not radiating their own glory. They're radiating the glory of God and when a demon is cast out, there is kind of a glow about the person and that's an indication that the demon is gone. Oftentimes, when people are possessed, there's kind of a I don't know. The person's complexion just seems to be very dull, but when that demon is cast out, there is a radiance or a glory about it.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Hmm, but that's so. I'm trying to think of it right where. But for you, that must be so illuminating too. It's like, oh, wow, like here's Jesus, I almost feel like all the saints come in together, and it's like, yes, like our brother and sister is free now, type of thing.

Speaker 2: 17:04

I don't know, I don't want to put words in your mouth too, but that must be a good thing to see from your perspective too, and that's a good analogy, because the part of the rite of exorcism at the very beginning, after blessing the person with holy water, is to do the litany of the saints, to call upon the holy men and women, our blessed mother, to be present and drink this prayer of the church.

Speaker 1: 18:57

All right. Next question we got here is has a demon actually said anything to you personally or, I guess, anything like I know they try to spew out all sorts of things, but have they actually said anything to you personally to kind of rattle you or throw you off?

Speaker 2: 19:15

They will try to do that. Demons, of course, are liars. We know the devil is a liar, the father of all lies. So anything a demon says should not be listened to, and even exorcists are cautioned against trying to enter into a conversation with a demon. Again, they're very intellectual in nature, based on their angelic nature. Even though it's fallen, it's distorted, they still retain this great intellect. You know there's the current movie out right now, Nefarious. Many people may have seen it. You know it's about a man on death row who's possessed and his psychologist is an atheist and there's a dialogue between the two of them. What's interesting about that movie is they don't really get into the theatrics of the devil. But one of the key things that that movie demonstrates is the high intellectual nature of the devil, and usually that's not something that most people think about. But again, the devil is very intellectual and he can use that intellect as a way to try to lead us into a world of deception. And even during exorcisms they may try to spew things out Certainly all lies, which is why nobody should pay attention to what they're saying. But all of that has the purpose of wanting to disrupt the prayer of the church, Because if a demon says something that rattles me or anyone else in the room, then the prayer would stop and then the devil believes that he's one.

Speaker 1: 20:49

Yeah, I think that's that's something that people underestimate about you know Satan and his demons is that they are way smarter than us. You know, like they are highly intelligent. They're very, they're very observant and they know our weaknesses better than we know them, and they will take advantage of that. And so, like you said, yeah, if you dialogue with them, they're gonna out wait you, they're gonna outsmart you. They're master manipulators. And so, yeah, like you said, just just focus on Jesus, because Jesus is the ultimate exorcist.

Speaker 2: 21:16

So and that's based on their angelic nature. So when God created the angels, he gave them infused knowledge. It's like a computer being downloaded with information. They don't have to go to school to learn anything, they can just call it up. That's why one of the signs of demonic possession is the ability to speak and understand languages otherwise unknown to the individual. So if I'm working with someone who is possessed and I know that that person doesn't speak Greek and then, during an exorcism, greek starts come out of the mouth of the person, then I know it's not that person speaking, but it's now the demon itself. So again, they are highly intellectual and we should never try to give them the upper hand. There may be people that think well, you know, I can control the devil. Well, if we have that mentality, the devil's the cat and we're the mouse. And we're not gonna wait and we know that won't end well.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Exactly yeah. Or the next person asks are there certain practices that people can utilize? They mentioned, like drug use or history of trauma that people undergo that maybe make them more susceptible to demonic, I guess, obsession or oppression or actual possession?

Speaker 2: 22:33

Yeah, you know, whenever I work with somebody I always try to determine what the entry point was, because for the most part, if somebody is truly living out their faith, they don't have to worry about the extraordinary activity of the devil. There are four types. We've been talking a lot about possession. There's also infestation, the presence of evil in a location. There's vexation, which are physical attacks, and then obsession, which are mental attacks. But oftentimes people may do something either directly or indirectly. Directly, they do something they know is contrary to the law of God, but they do it anyway. Or indirectly, they think something is fun or entertaining and the devil uses that as an opportunity to break into their life. You know Halloween is coming up. You know an entry point for the demonic for a lot of people I call the entertainment industry. There's that great fascination with the devil and whenever we become more fascinated with the devil, he's certainly going to try to get our attention so that we delve deeper into his world and step outside of the world of God. But to live in the world of God is Catholic. I always say that it's Catholics if we're going to mass, if we're praying, reading the Bible, celebrating the sacraments, if we know and are living our faith, the devil is already on the run. But oftentimes people may give in to sinful behavior and even begin to justify it, and then, in doing so, they give the devil the upper hand. We're all sinners, we all do wrong, but from a Catholic perspective, we know that when we do wrong, when we violate God's law, all we have to do is repent, and when we repent, god is always ready to forgive us.

Speaker 1: 24:18

I know you mentioned too September. In October your activity has increased quite a bit leading up to Halloween, so that I just speaks to as Halloween comes, which is very sad, because obviously November 1st, Halloween is all Hallows Eve and then November 1st is all Saints' Day, so I guess it just speaks to the demonic, too is that they want to use things that are holy and desecrate them in order to increase their activity as well. All right, so the next person asks how common are exorcisms in the US versus the rest of the world? Is there increase here? Is it all about the same or less? I'll let you speak on that.

Speaker 2: 25:02

You know, christianity built Western civilization. But there's a lot of people in the West who have moved away from their Christian roots and in doing so I think they invite the demonic in. In the West, oftentimes we may attribute demonic activity to mental illness. So there's a lot of people in the West that would discount the possibility that what somebody is suffering is truly of a demonic nature. They may say well, it's a mental health issue, they need to take medication Other parts of the world. My experience is that those folks will readily accept the possibility that what somebody is suffering is from a spiritual nature. So I think the activity would be comparable, almost the same, but there may be a different approach in the West where, whereas we may be more skeptical in believing that it's demonic but maybe other parts of the world, they would at least be open to the possibility that it's spiritual in nature.

Speaker 1: 26:03

All right, so how do you know when you're talking to the demon versus the actual person that's possessed?

Speaker 2: 26:12

Yeah, that's why there's no such thing as an emergency exorcism. It has to be a very methodical process, so that I get to know the person and then I know whether or not I'm speaking with that person or now. The demonic Demons are very arrogant and they cannot accept the fact that they're being commanded to do something by a creature that they consider to be inferior to themselves. I even had a colleague who told me that when he was doing an exorcism because everything the priest is doing is meant to force the demon to manifest and the demon was trying to resist, he said. But finally the demon blurted out and said you, stupid monkey, who are you to tell me what to do? So they have this great level of arrogance and pride and, even though they may be trying to hide, eventually they will lash out because they can't accept again the fact that they're being commanded to do something by a human person that they consider to be below themselves.

Speaker 1: 27:14

I can't emphasize that enough. I know you mentioned to and all your talks, father Vince, is that. You know, I think people think this exorcism is like these Catholic priests are coming in and like just putting a crucifix on somebody and casting demons out, which is totally not how it goes at all. Like you mentioned, there's, there's a protocol, especially the United States, a very strict protocol known. They have to get checked out by medical doctors to determine that you know there's no psychiatric illness or physical illness, and then you yourself have to sit down, talk with them. Have you have your own questions? You have to ask, try to find out if there's a portal, so it's. It's not like you know, boom, I meet you today and in your exercise by this afternoon. You know it's a, it's a, it's a huge, it can be a prolonged process. And it kind of leads to the next question that they, this person, asked, was how do, why do some exorcism seem to take a much longer time versus some? It just seems to be like like kind of mentioned, like a one and done type of thing.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Probably the place to begin with, by answering that question, is the most important step of the protocol used the United States is for the person to grow in holiness and virtue. I would even suggest the casting the demon out is the easy part. Convincing the person they need to invite God in can be the harder part. There's a growing trend that I've seen over in recent years where people will treat them, the exorcist, as a magician, meaning they want the evil to go away but they want nothing to do with God, and we've been pointing out that God is the main actor here, and so usually demons will have the upper hand when people are wanting the demon to go but not to invite God in, and that's why exorcism prayers may have to be repeated. Usually I prefer not to work with someone if they're not connected to some type of a church home, because they're going to need ongoing pastoral care and help that they're going to get from their local parish. Half the people I talk to are not Catholic. They come from other faith traditions, so they need to be connected with their pastor, if you will, who can provide them that ongoing help, because oftentimes, once the demon is cast out and maybe the person has expressed a desire to grow closer to God, but we all know that when people are in a moment of crisis they'll do anything, but once the crisis is over, they may lapse back into their old patterns, patterns that perhaps allow the demonic to enter. In Chapter 11 of Luke's Gospel it talks about how the demon, once it's been cast out, it goes in wonders through the arid wasteland and then coming back and finding the house swept clean, meaning it's gone. The God hasn't been invited in. Then it goes and finds seven other demons worse than itself, and they come and take up residence in the person. I've also seen the case where demons seem to have the upper hand in the West, because there's a difference between exorcisms performed in the apostate world and the so-called pagan world. The apostate world meaning people who knew the truth of Jesus Christ, but then they walked away from it. Demons seemed to have a greater hold on these folks compared to those who may be possessed, who have never heard the good news of Jesus Christ, and when the gospel was proclaimed in front of them for the very first time, the demons will flee. So in the apostate world it does seem that exorcisms have to be performed more than once, but in other parts of the world it can be one and done.

Speaker 1: 31:04

Excuse me, this is kind of a sidebar question, but I know you've mentioned too the Catholic Church, catholicism, priest don't have a monopoly over exorcisms, but it does seem that the Catholic Church seems to have I don't want to say more power, but it seems to be. A lot more religions come to Catholic priests. If maybe they've tried and it's failed, so to speak. Do you feel like the Church because it was founded by Christ? Do you feel like there is a little bit more, because, I know you mentioned too, demons are very legalistic and authoritative. Do you feel like the Church? In a sense, though, does have more of a legal authority, in a sense because it was a Church founded by Christ, or am I off basis there a little bit?

Speaker 2: 31:49

Yeah, I think you're right on target. That's the power and the authority that Christ gave to the Church. I think people turn to the Catholic Church because there's a very structured and organized way of dealing with the devil. The reality is too, they're a Catholic priest and then they're a Catholic priest. Just because one is a priest doesn't mean that he necessarily believes what the Church teaches about the demonic. I mean, I've encountered priests over the years that say that the devil's not real, he's just a metaphor for humanity's inhumane treatment of one another. But that certainly goes against what the Church officially teaches. The Church says that evil is personified in what we call the devil and his demons, and then just in the same breath we can say that there are pastors of other churches. But then there are pastors, so you can find, I believe, holy men of God in many different walks of life. And to me that would be a key ingredient in anyone who believes they're dealing with the demonic is to go find that man of God who may be able to give you the help that you're looking for. Because, again, it's what God is doing and certainly God can work wherever he will. Certainly it's a power and the authority given to the Church by Christ himself. But I have witnessed over the years people who have found relief by seeing ministers of other churches. Maybe they're Catholic priests, I mean, I had someone tell me recently a parish priest that somebody that he was working with was possessed. In his view he didn't have the authority to deal with it but kept getting the run around in his diocese and finally the guy got frustrated and turned to a pastor of another church who was able to cast the demon out, he said.

Speaker 1: 33:43

And then the guy eventually left the Catholic Church and joined that church because the church was able to give him what he was looking for I am curious, father of Vents, when can you mention, like there's priests out there that you know, don't believe the demons and the devil is real, like when they find out you're an exorcist? I mean you're clearly, you're level-headed, you're intelligent, you're a very calm individual. I mean, do they just think like you're crazy? You're like, oh, that's nice. Or I mean, it's just because you know, you hear these stories. It's almost like they they'd have to almost entertain that you're a bit delusional or you're hallucinating, type of. But right, I mean, because this is what you do, you know, besides not only being a parish priest too, but I am just like. What are the kind of the reactions when you're like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm not an exorcist as well?

Speaker 2: 36:31

You know, when I was appointed back in 2005, some of the priests in my own diocese even laughed and said do we really need a priest in that role? You know, wow, yeah, so, but if I'm going to be a fool, I would prefer to be a fool for Christ. Yeah, and I don't really care what people think about me, you know, yeah, they may think I'm crazy or delusional, but as a representative of the church which is what a priest is that I'm there to represent the church and not just myself. You know, I like to think of. One of the definitions of a priest is that a priest is an ambassador, and we know that an ambassador represents something greater than himself. I do think that some priests who don't accept what the church teaches about the reality of evil in the devil, perhaps view their priesthood as an occupation rather than a vocation. You know, the word vocation means a calling from God. We do what we do because God has called us to do it. But when we view it as an occupation, just a job, then maybe we begin to lose that sense of what priesthood is really all about.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Alright. Next one this is kind of a funny question Do exorcists get paid more than a regular parish priest, and are you allowed to tip your exorcist or have people tip to you? I laughed when I saw that question. I'm like, alright, I have to ask him.

Speaker 2: 37:55

Exorcism is a ministry of charity so the church doesn't charge. You know, every parish priest, regardless of the responsibilities that he has, makes the same salary as any other priest in the diocese. So I'm the pastor of two parishes in the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. I serve on the Council of Priests, I take care of a third parish that closed 10 years ago. I maintain the campus and the cemetery. So I have two parishes, a third one that's closed, four cemeteries that I oversee. I'm on the Council of Priests and then I'm the exorcist for the diocese and the salary would be the same. Now there is a joke amongst exorcists. So the joke is again remember, there is no charge, so exorcisms are free. But the joke is, the danger is if you don't pay your exorcist you might get repossessed, and I think it's healthy to have a sense of humor, because when you're dealing with people that are dealing with a demonic it can be very taxing and draining. So having a good sense of humor, I think, is a healthy thing. I also think it's healthy not to be an exorcist full-time. The fact that I can be involved in parish life gives a good balance to the ministry that I'm called to do. I can't imagine seven days a week dealing with people that are demonic, because eventually that would just become so exhausting and draining. But as a parish priest I can renew myself by being involved in the lives of my parishioners and celebrating Mass and the sacraments of the Church.

Speaker 1: 39:38

So dad jokes are for lay fathers and for priests as well. I love it. So when do you sleep? Do you just get like two hours a night. I mean, you're clearly a busy man. You travel, you give talks. My goodness, god provides. There you go 100%, all right. So how has technology made your life easier, more difficult or just different in general, compared to when you first started this ministry?

Speaker 2: 40:09

I would say different. There's pros and cons. The fact that we have technology means that people have greater access in reaching an exorcist, maybe asking questions, trying to figure out what's going on in their lives. There are cons to that. Because I'm public, I've had somebody actually steal my identity, my image and my name and create a fake Facebook account email accounts whereby they ask people for money. So and I've even tried to shut those things down, but I've not been successful. So I always tell people that I don't use social media anymore. The best way for people to reach me is through email and because I get about 70 requests a week from people all over the United States and other parts of the world seeking help, that email really is, for me, the best way. And I tell people if there's some other form of social media out there with my name or image, then it's fake. Often times, this one person that has the fake Facebook account charges people $500 and he requires people to send him the money upfront, but again it goes back to the notion that there is no charge. The church isn't going to make a buck on people's brokenness in dealing with the demonic. In fact, even mixing money and fighting the devil is a bad combination because it may inflate the priest ego to the extent like, wow, look at me and how important I am, and you know I can get all this gain for myself. So that's really a bad thing and that's how the devil would try to attack the exorcist, just to get the exorcist to move away from the virtue of humility and give into the sin of pride.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Next one, which I know the answer, but are you allowed to videotape exorcisms?

Speaker 2: 42:13

No, the church does not permit exorcisms to be recorded. People always say, well, if the church did, it would give us that concrete evidence. But I don't think that would be true either. You would still have skeptics who would say, well, that video's been manipulated. Because there's a lot of ways that people can manipulate stuff today and create images that aren't true or authentic. There's a lot of discussion we all know in the news today about fake news, what's real, what's been generated by AI and that type of thing. So really it's a question of faith. You know, if you're a person of faith, then believing is seeing. If you don't really have that level of faith, then you may operate from the mindset that seeing is believing. But even Jesus says in the Gospel you know, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. So we really have to take Jesus' word about the reality of evil and how to combat it through the ministry of exorcism. So if we accept his word as a matter of faith, we should need any empirical data or evidence that may come through technology.

Speaker 1: 44:33

Yeah, I remember you were on a I think it was the PBD podcast and you mentioned that I won. The host was like oh, how convenient, father, but it just it goes back to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, you know, and he was oh, if you send my, if you, if Lazarus went up and told my brothers you know about, you know, like the reality of this, like they would definitely believe in stuff. And he's like no, you have Moses in the prophets. You know, like, no matter what you do to my, how much evidence is clearly there, there's going to be people who just refuse to believe, no matter what you do. Because, like you said, you could, you could totally have an invalid videotape. You know all the permissions given, everything. People like, oh no, that's fake. Like have a stage, like this person wasn't really possessed, you like he didn't even see a doctor, you know. So, no matter what you guys do, there's always going to be the skeptics out there, even if you give 100% foolproof evidence. So, all right. Next one why are you kind of talked about this, but maybe you can expand on that? Why are exorcists? Why are exorcists more publicly known now versus, maybe, in the past?

Speaker 2: 45:40

I think the reason that we are more publicly known is that there's a greater need for people to be able to have an access to an exorcist to talk about what's going on in their lives. Faith is in decline in the lives of many people. I read a stat recently that said that one out of every five Americans now identifies as being an atheist, and even though these people may have grown up in a traditional Christian home, so faith is in decline. And whenever faith is in decline, I think the devil is having the upper hand. You know, when I was appointed back in 2005, I became one of only 12 stably appointed Catholic exorcists in the United States. Today that number has grown to more than 175. In fact, there's even an exorcist training school in the United States now where priests are sent by their bishops to learn the ministry. That did not exist when I was appointed and that school now has graduated, if you will 300 priests who have gone through the program. Not all of them have been appointed the exorcist by their bishop, but they do have that knowledge and training and skill that if the bishop did need someone in his diocese to address a possible case of extraordinary demonic activity, then he has somebody to turn to. You know, a bishop technically is the exorcist in his diocese. He has that by virtue of his office Based on chapter 9 of Luke's Gospel, where Jesus sends the twelve out and gives them authority over all unclean spirits. And we know that the bishops are these successors to the apostles. And then a bishop can appoint one or more of his priests on a stable basis to do this ministry, meaning this is the priest in the diocese to go to, or he can appoint any priest on a case by case basis to deal with extraordinary demonic activity in his diocese. But I think the fact that priests are more public in the role, that, the fact that we are more exorcists now in the United States, it's a clear indication to the people that the church is listening and responding to the growing trend of people moving away from faith and the fact that faith is in decline.

Speaker 1: 47:59

Now can any? I'm guessing this you need permission from your bishop to go to the school to get trained. Would that be accurate for pre?

Speaker 2: 48:07

Yes.

Speaker 1: 48:08

Okay, yeah, I thought so, yeah. So then the Pope can do exorcism then, because he's the head of the church.

Speaker 2: 48:13

Right yeah, john Paul II did an exorcism in St Peter's Square, really.

Speaker 1: 48:19

Yes, can you tell me this story? I have not heard this.

Speaker 2: 48:24

I think you could find it online. If it you know, okay in search of it. But a person was brought to him after a Wednesday general audience and the person was acting as if they were possessed and John Paul did an exorcism I'll have to look this up.

Speaker 1: 48:41

I love John Paul II so I will definitely look into that more. So this is a good question. It has more to do with prayer. So what should we be and look out for, I guess internally in our prayer life, in terms of, like, if you are just saying the words and nothing more, you don't really mean it, is there a decrease in efficacy of your prayer? So if you're just kind of going through the motions versus you know, you, I guess I don't know how you feel like you're really meditating on the prayers that you're saying Is there? a decrease in efficacy with your prayer.

Speaker 2: 49:17

Yeah, there are two words that come to mind Is it intentional or just functional? So intentional means we're truly engaged in that prayer. I think when it becomes functional we're just going through the motions, we're rattling it off. There's an old joke amongst priests Of course it was before. Some of the changes in the mass, you know, used to be the Lord be with you and also with you. Now we say it with your spirit. But the joke was the priests began mass one day by making the sign of the cross in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, amen. And then he realized the microphone wasn't working and the next thing he said was there's something wrong with this. And the congregation responded and also with you that somehow we're not really listening to what's being said. We just so accustomed to certain responses that we just throw them out. And I think we have to make sure that our prayer lives are not becoming functional or mechanical, but that we're truly intentional and engaged. I think that's one of the reasons why the church in the United States is now in the midst of this Eucharistic revival. You know, have Catholics just begun to take the Eucharist for granted? It's just something that we do as a part of going to mass, rather than really thinking about what it is that we are receiving. I just finished reading a book called what is Christianity? It's the final thoughts and writings of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. It just came out. He didn't want it published until after his death, but he is reflecting on the Eucharist, intercommunion amongst Christians and that type of thing. But he does focus on that word functional that perhaps a lot of Catholics today simply do not truly appreciate the Eucharist for what it is. It's just become kind of a habit, something that we do, and I think the same thing can be true of prayer. We have to make sure that it's truly intentional again and not just functional, something we're rattling off. As a priest, I see people sometimes that are praying the rosary before mass and it's like a machine gun. You're just rattling off as fast as you can and I'm thinking you know, wow, okay, there's some efficacy on there on some level. But I think when we're more deliberate in how we pray, I think it's more meaningful.

Speaker 1: 51:56

Yeah, when you're doing all four mysteries, so 20 decades in about 10 minutes, probably one, slow down a little bit there. No, I look, because I think I get in the habit too, because I mean becoming Catholic, there's so many rich traditions. There's no Venus, there's special prayers. So it's easy to feel overwhelmed because like, oh, I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't do that, but like, no, it's, it's being intentional, like you said, because another thing too is just showing up, is, you know, because it's better to do something versus nothing, obviously, but just showing up and, like you said, being intentional, even if you say one very reverent, our Father, I mean that could be more efficacious than, you know, a whole rosary that's done irreverently, you know, so to speak. So I love how you being intentional is more important than than having a checklist of prayers that you got to do.

Speaker 2: 52:43

And I would say too, you know, when people go to confession, you know I usually will give people a prayer to say and people might be more accustomed to getting our fathers in Hail Mary's. In fact, one day someone went to confession and I gave them this particular prayer that I wanted them to save for their penance, and they said, father, you didn't give me any our fathers or Hail Mary's, but again, they were just so accustomed to that's what you get. I'm like, no, I'm not giving you our fathers in Hail Mary's. I want you to pray and reflect on this prayer in light of what you've confessed today. Yeah, again, we can become so mechanical that maybe we're missing out on something on a much deeper level.

Speaker 1: 53:28

Okay, this was another good question too, in terms of if you recognize that you're actually are in a state of mortal sin, are your prayers less efficacious than if you're in a state of grace?

Speaker 2: 53:42

I think the question would be whether or not one acknowledges that they're in a state of mortal sin, because I think that sin is in decline. I think there's a lot of people asking the question today what is truth? We hear that question proposed when Jesus is before Pontius Pilate what is truth? I think there's a lot of people today that want to rewrite truth. Rather than following God and God's laws and commandments, we kind of want to recreate truth for ourselves, but as long as we can still call sin of sin. So if somebody is in a state of mortal sin and they acknowledge that they can still pray and I believe their prayers are going to be heard because they recognize the sinfulness of their life. If somebody is in a state of mortal sin but somehow they're trying to justify it, then I think on some level that may weaken their prayer life, because there's a lot of people that may think that what they're doing is okay, even though it may be inconsistent with how God calls us to live our lives. As Catholics we say there are moral absolutes, things that are always right or always wrong, all the time based on what God has revealed to us. But we are living in an age, I think when we want to rewrite the truth and that's really what the serpent tried to do with Eve in the garden in the first temptation Did God really tell you in other words, start questioning God, god's afraid of you that you can become on the same level? And then that's when he said you're not going to die, you're going to become like God. And I think when we try to rewrite truth and take the place of God, that's when we get ourselves into trouble, and in those cases our prayers are probably less effective. And of course, the reality is too that when people believe that they are the final authority, they're probably not really praying anymore. And if they are, they're probably just praying to themselves and certainly not to the one true God.

Speaker 1: 55:48

Well, father, we did it, we made it through the questions and it's already been an hour, my goodness. Well, that was a rapid fire and all sorts of ways, but one of the reasons I did want to have you back on too is because getting more into the history of exorcism and hearing you guys talk is it strengthens my faith. Like you said, too, it's not about fascination with the demonic, because that's when you get into that curiosity, the sin of curiosity it could come, but it's actually strengthening your faith because you guys always turn it back to Jesus, and I love that you guys are so humble in that we literally don't do anything. It's all Jesus that does it too, because he's the ultimate exorcist as well. And answering your questions, too, always with charity. And listening to some of your interviews with podcasts, some of the guests can be a little bit not aggressive, but definitely skeptical, but you're always very calm and you just deliver out of charity. And I love hearing your guys' response, because you especially too. It's all about educating the public. What people do with that knowledge that they receive from you it's ultimately up to them, but you guys always give that level, even Keel education, so I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 57:05

Now that's the church. Through the ministry, by being public and my bishop gave me that permission it's a way to evangelize people. I can propose what the church teaches and many people may not even know what the church teaches, so I can present it to them. But then what they do with that is ultimately up to them. You know, I got an email recently from a young lady in Australia who told me that she had no faith. But she saw some interview that I had done and it really challenged her to think about the fact whether or not God had a place in her life. And she said she responded yes. So she went down to the local Catholic parish, she joined the RCIA class and is scheduled to be received into the church at Easter of next year. So again, it's just a way of by being public in the ministry, it's a way of inserting God back into I don't know the human equation here at this particular moment in the 21st century, at a time when maybe a lot of people are removing God, by being public in the ministry, it's a way to reinsert God into society 100%.

Speaker 1: 58:16

Well, Father Lamper, thank you again so much for your time. Before I let you go, you might have given us a final blessing.

Speaker 2: 58:23

May the Lord be with you and may Almighty God send His blessing upon you and upon all of these listeners here today, in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, amen. Amen.

Speaker 1: 58:34

Well, father, again, thank you so much for your time. I know Halloween is coming up, so I hope your activity is not too much more hectic than what it normally is. But again, we appreciate it. Yes, you're welcome, my pleasure. All right, until next time, everyone, go out there and be a saint.